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Digital pianos are overprized
#2982886 05/23/20 04:33 PM
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Just cheking prices for new refrigerators. It is ridiculous. A refrigerator is much more expensive to make, regarding materials and labour, than a digital piano. But for the price of a very good refrigerator you afford an entry digital piano at most. I think even considering top digitals as kawai mp11 or similar ones, they should retail for 500€ and that is enough for everyone making profit. 2000€ is crazy
Materials for a digital amount to how much? 50€ max. Labour? All they made in china, let's say another 50. Technology? The most advanced high.tech thing is the same touch screen you find in any smartphone since 2010. Samples are nothing cutting edge. So I think that the cost per unit in any 2000€ digital piano is no more than 150€ for the maker. How crazy is that they retail for 2000 and more? Maybe marketing guys are paid as sport stars. They must be genius for being able to make so much people accept those absurd prices as something normal.

Oh i talked about refrigerators, but you can take sofas and it is even worse. For the price of a humble roland fp30 you get a sofa that could be in the royal suite of a 5 stars hotel.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982896 05/23/20 04:52 PM
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You said it: most of it goes to marketing.

Take, for instance, pivots; Yamaha knows we’re obsessed with them, so they make sure to market the heck out of pivot length instead of giving us a fully wooden (not folded) action; like the one used in the CLP-990.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982898 05/23/20 04:56 PM
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So .... apparently you mean't for the title of your post to be ....
Quote
Digital pianos are over PRICED
.

Not over PRIZED.

However, one could argue they are also ... over PRIZED (personally valued).

As far as over PRICED ....

Manufacturers will PRICE things depending upon how much they are PRIZED by the consuming public.

So, if we pay the price then it is not overpriced.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982900 05/23/20 05:00 PM
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It is the issue with niche market : not enough concurrent brands to make the price down.

Also, the Research and Development should be paid by less units sold than in a larger market (fridge...). I have read about a cheap Chinese digital piano (300€) where the sustain resonance effect is buggy and add white noise !! Perhaps we should paid more for a real quality assurance on the firmware.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982902 05/23/20 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ubu
Just cheking prices for new refrigerators. It is ridiculous. A refrigerator is much more expensive to make, regarding materials and labour, than a digital piano. But for the price of a very good refrigerator you afford an entry digital piano at most. I think even considering top digitals as kawai mp11 or similar ones, they should retail for 500€ and that is enough for everyone making profit. 2000€ is crazy
Materials for a digital amount to how much? 50€ max. Labour? All they made in china, let's say another 50. Technology? The most advanced high.tech thing is the same touch screen you find in any smartphone since 2010. Samples are nothing cutting edge. So I think that the cost per unit in any 2000€ digital piano is no more than 150€ for the maker. How crazy is that they retail for 2000 and more? Maybe marketing guys are paid as sport stars. They must be genius for being able to make so much people accept those absurd prices as something normal.

Oh i talked about refrigerators, but you can take sofas and it is even worse. For the price of a humble roland fp30 you get a sofa that could be in the royal suite of a 5 stars hotel.

That`s true, but don`t forget, everyone buys refrigerators and sofas but only few buys digital piano. So the price goes up. Piano makers must living and pay workers also.

Last edited by slobajudge; 05/23/20 05:03 PM.
Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982904 05/23/20 05:06 PM
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Yeah, they are overpriced, but I can live with that.

What I find difficult to accept is that their piano sounds are lagging so much behind what's possible today. Why are there no dp's with a decent vst quality 20+ velocity layer piano sound on board by now?

At least you can get a nice action in a dp these days, but common.. give us better sound.

Imagine a dp with something like synthogy's American D or better, that would be pretty cool.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982906 05/23/20 05:09 PM
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Digital pianos have more moving parts and precision mechanics than sofas.

I wouldn't rely on a gut feeling bill of materials cost.

Where's the Sandy Munro of digital pianos? 😁

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982907 05/23/20 05:10 PM
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@dmd :

Sure we buy DP at there price, but if all fridges where double priced, we would buy them too since they are near essential. Then the behaviour of purchasers is not the only item which determine the price. It is a complex relationship between the different brands and the purchasers.

A too much priced digital piano and the purchasers will take an other brand, A too less priced digital piano and the margin could be too low.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/23/20 05:16 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982909 05/23/20 05:11 PM
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So you want long pivots and also ‘20 + velocity layer piano’? Well, aren’t you the greedy one. wink

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982910 05/23/20 05:14 PM
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General Rule of Thumb, you take the average retail electronic's price subtract 10-20%, divide by 3, that's how much it costs to make that thing in China.

Obviously this doesn't cover everything, but most low tech electronics like a digital piano, this would be pretty close.

Then for the more expensive DPs, that's ALL luxury tax, you can not apply this rule, it's just whatever the market will support.

Some components in very expensive items are unbelievably cheap. For example, OLED Televisions selling for $3000-5000, the panel itself is only $30-60 to produce.

Last edited by jeffcat; 05/23/20 05:16 PM.
Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982911 05/23/20 05:16 PM
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Start a digital piano company and undercut everyone else.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Pete14 #2982912 05/23/20 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
So you want long pivots and also ‘20 + velocity layer piano’? Well, aren’t you the greedy one. wink

Ok since you can't have it all, Ill make a compromise and take a dp with kawai's rm3 grand ii (short pivot) with vsl's d-274 on-board. smirk

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982919 05/23/20 05:27 PM
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Now, that sounds more realistic: short on one end, but long on-board.

James, are you listening? grin

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982920 05/23/20 05:30 PM
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The new Kawai ES120 is set to have the Grand Feel 4 fully wooden action (which they've been secretly working on), a completely redesigned metal casing with wooden sides, sounds that are more realistic than a real Grand piano, and a 360° speaker system the likes of which you've never heard. Best of all, though, it will weigh less than a fridge. That'll teach TS smile

@TS : if any 5-star hotel put a sofa in the room that only costs the price of a Roland FP30, I'd bring my own K&M piano bench to sit on...


A long time ago, in a musical galaxy far, far away...
Eminent-Solina B412, Yamaha DX21, Yamaha V50, Yamaha U1

21st century...
Kawai MP11SE, Kawai CA58
Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982922 05/23/20 05:31 PM
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There was a time when Yamaha communicated about the number of velocity layers... 3, 4 and even 5 if I remind well. Now, they don’t communicate on them (the number, the blending)... then I don’t think there is an incentive too improve something on which they don’t communicate.

But things could change.

VST are superior about the number of layers but also unlooped samples.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982925 05/23/20 05:40 PM
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@ChrisGoesPiano : yes, the FP30 price is near this IKEA sofa (https://www.ikea.com/fr/fr/p/groenlid-canape-3-places-sporda-gris-fonce-s59255914/) which should be quite simple compared to a FP30 : no moving parts, no electronics, no firmware to develop.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982927 05/23/20 05:43 PM
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If they are selling, then they are not overpriced ...


Decent upright bassist; aspiring decent pianist
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Re: Digital pianos are overprized
dmd #2982931 05/23/20 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dmd
Not over PRIZED.

However, one could argue they are also ... over PRIZED (personally valued).

As far as over PRICED ....

Manufacturers will PRICE things depending upon how much they are PRIZED by the consuming public.

So, if we pay the price then it is not overpriced.

Glad to see at least someone understands the concept of the market.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982934 05/23/20 06:04 PM
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Compared to the number of fridges sold, digital pianos aren’t selling.

But that doesn’t really help except inform us that scale is the dominant factor here. Somebody mentioned getting a return on the research development costs. But there is more to it than that, production in large volumes drives down per unit costs, from setting up the factory to distribution systems.

Like most things I would guess that the large profit margins are at the luxury end, the expensive models, that for some people are about status rather than a quality useable bit of kit. So though there’ll be decent profit on lower end models, that will be tiny compared to the AG and Novus models, or what about Roland grand, or is that just vapourware.

Re: Digital pianos are overprized
Ubu #2982940 05/23/20 06:14 PM
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This seems like a lot of ill-informed nonsense ...
Originally Posted by Ubu
Just cheking prices for new refrigerators. It is ridiculous. A refrigerator is much more expensive to make, regarding materials and labour, than a digital piano. But for the price of a very good refrigerator you afford an entry digital piano at most. I think even considering top digitals as kawai mp11 or similar ones, they should retail for 500€ and that is enough for everyone making profit. 2000€ is crazy
Materials for a digital amount to how much? 50€ max. Labour? All they made in china, let's say another 50. Technology? The most advanced high.tech thing is the same touch screen you find in any smartphone since 2010. Samples are nothing cutting edge. So I think that the cost per unit in any 2000€ digital piano is no more than 150€ for the maker. How crazy is that they retail for 2000 and more? Maybe marketing guys are paid as sport stars. They must be genius for being able to make so much people accept those absurd prices as something normal.
You claim something costs too much, but offer no substantiation.

Then you make up a bunch of numbers, none of which are supported by evidence.

You omit most of the costs of operation ... perhaps because you know nothing about operating a business.

And finally you overlook the fact that these pianos are selling well ... which means that people are agreeable to the price.
Perhaps you are not. But others are. That means the prices are acceptable.

I'll call your post a rant. Pure and simple.

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