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Advice please for buying new piano
#2982032 05/21/20 06:55 AM
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Hi all, I'd appreciate some opinions on my predicament smile

I have a Clavinova CSP 170 which I love and I'm looking to buy an acoustic.
I'm only at about an intermediate level, adult learner, came back to piano after 30 years of not touching one, but practicing about 2h/day and not planning to stop.

I'm based in Eastern Europe so my options of trying before I buy are very limited.

I've found a local technician that sells Petrof and August Foerster and he has some pianos, I wouldn't call it 'on display' but rather 'in his warehouse'. They are not tuned and/or voiced, they are just as they came from the factory. Piano selling is not his main source of income since he has a family business of piano tuning going back to 1896.

I played a bit (10 minutes) on those pianos, mostly from my curiosity to see how acoustic action really feels. I found out:
- I cannot differentiate quickly between uprights and grands in terms of action, but I could in terms of sound.
- I liked the Petrof sound, especially the 194 Storm
- August Foerster is not for me, it sounded.... 'old'
I plan to go again in the next days for a lengthier session of playing and to gather more data.

My budget would be about 25k euros (aprox 27.5k USD).

The Petrof 194 Storm is offered at around 24k euros, not sure if negotiable.

On the other hand, I've asked the Kawai dealer for some prices (they don't stock any model) and I found out that SK-2 would be about 30k euros... And they mentioned that it's an "informational" price, so maybe I can negotiate a bit.

There are no ways to test any Kawai (or other brand) with the current events. The only option would be to go to Vienna or any German city after borders open-up, and try some pianos, with the understanding that I could still not get most of them in my country; and paying the transport from western Europe is out of the question.
There are not many options of second-hand pianos around here, so I don't expect to buy something for 2-5 years, then trade-up... there is no trade-up.

Questions:
1. Would a Kawai SK-2 be worth buying sight-unseen? I would try to stretch my budget with the understanding that I have space to 'grow' into an SK-2 for the foreseeable future smile
2. Yamaha C2X: I can find this online in my country at about the same price as the Petrof 194 Storm. No chance to test it though... I know the Yamaha sound from my Clavinova but I'd like to diversify the sounds in the house. Would this model qualify as a 'piano to play for a long time'?
3. Didn't see many owners of Petrof 194 posting in this forum, I've searched... Are there any worries/red-flags in terms of construction quality/materials/stability? I liked the sound, not sure yet about the action, seemed way lighter than the CSP 170...

Thanks for reading all of this, and for any inputs... First time piano buying seems hard smile

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Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hanumax #2982038 05/21/20 07:36 AM
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Based on your location maybe you can get a good deal on an Estonia

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hanumax #2982080 05/21/20 09:48 AM
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Any piano you buy now without spending a lot of time playing many pianos will end up not being the one you want to stay with, you will find the one you really like later on.

So unless you are wealthy enough to take the hit of changing from the piano you buy now I think really there are only two sensible choices. Either be patient, wait for times to become normal, play lots of pianos and then choose or just buy something cheap , even a used upright or something like that, whatever you can take the loss on when you change up later and still like playing for the moment.

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hanumax #2982106 05/21/20 10:41 AM
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Any piano you buy now without spending a lot of time playing many pianos will end up not being the one you want to stay with, you will find the one you really like later on.

So unless you are wealthy enough to take the hit of changing from the piano you buy now I think really there are only two sensible choices. Either be patient, wait for times to become normal, play lots of pianos and then choose or just buy something cheap , even a used upright or something like that, whatever you can take the loss on when you change up later and still like playing for the moment.

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Ubu #2982121 05/21/20 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Ubu
Based on your location maybe you can get a good deal on an Estonia

I can't seem to find any dealer of Estonia in Europe in general. Could not find even a shop with Estonia to try...
Also, the cost of transport would be too much anyway.

@gwing
Thanks, that's a sensible opinion... I have considered that, but used uprights (or used anything) cannot be found here. All I can find locally are piano ruins from 1900 that people try to sell after their grandmother died, and from the photos they seem more trouble than it's worth. It's still possible that I may look into something new but cheaper, like a Kawai K300/500.

I am not really in a rush, but even after everything comes back to normal, and I try multiple brands/types in another country, my options would still be limited. Life is hard around here smile

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hanumax #2982134 05/21/20 11:22 AM
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1. No. An SK-3 would be a more interesting comparison to the Storm, to me. Although just about everyone respects the Shigeru Kawai, not everyone loves the sound of action, so being forced to buy sight unseen is not advised.
2. Yes, but I’d consider the SK-2 and Storm to be nicer/more special, based on my experiences trying them.
3. No, and that’s a very good price.


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Re: Advice please for buying new piano
gwing #2982135 05/21/20 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by gwing
Any piano you buy now without spending a lot of time playing many pianos will end up not being the one you want to stay with, you will find the one you really like later on.
It's possible that the piano one buys without spending time playing lots of pianos would be one the OP loves. I think many people are not as particular as the typical PW member and do not play many pianos before choosing one. OTOH I agree buying without testing a well prepped and in tune example of it is taking a chance.

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
pianoloverus #2982145 05/21/20 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by gwing
Any piano you buy now without spending a lot of time playing many pianos will end up not being the one you want to stay with, you will find the one you really like later on.
It's possible that the piano one buys without spending time playing lots of pianos would be one the OP loves. I think many people are not as particular as the typical PW member and do not play many pianos before choosing one. OTOH I agree buying without testing a well prepped and in tune example of it is taking a chance.

Of course it is possible. But not likely.

The OP asking is by definition a PW member , the curse has struck, never again to be satisfied with any old piano that turns up first!

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hanumax #2982171 05/21/20 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Hanumax
Originally Posted by Ubu
Based on your location maybe you can get a good deal on an Estonia

I can't seem to find any dealer of Estonia in Europe in general. Could not find even a shop with Estonia to try...
Also, the cost of transport would be too much anyway.

@gwing
Thanks, that's a sensible opinion... I have considered that, but used uprights (or used anything) cannot be found here. All I can find locally are piano ruins from 1900 that people try to sell after their grandmother died, and from the photos they seem more trouble than it's worth. It's still possible that I may look into something new but cheaper, like a Kawai K300/500.

I am not really in a rush, but even after everything comes back to normal, and I try multiple brands/types in another country, my options would still be limited. Life is hard around here smile
You can ask them directly to the factory. There's a recent thread here were a member from Peru got a very good price including transportation and taxes talking directly with Estonia as there's no dealer there.

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Ubu #2982190 05/21/20 01:38 PM
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@terminaldegree
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
It's possible that the piano one buys without spending time playing lots of pianos would be one the OP loves. I think many people are not as particular as the typical PW member and do not play many pianos before choosing one. OTOH I agree buying without testing a well prepped and in tune example of it is taking a chance.

Very possible... I mean the idea of picking between 10 pianos that I might like is scary... My sleep is bad enough with the current number of choices laugh

Originally Posted by gwing
The OP asking is by definition a PW member , the curse has struck, never again to be satisfied with any old piano that turns up first!

There should be a warning about this. "Leave your peace here, and get it back after 10 years and 2-3 pianos"

Originally Posted by Ubu
You can ask them directly to the factory. There's a recent thread here were a member from Peru got a very good price including transportation and taxes talking directly with Estonia as there's no dealer there.

Thanks, I'll try that. Now, does anyone in Europe have an Estonia that I might play for a while, to see if I like it? smile Will travel and bring candies/beer...

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hanumax #2982353 05/22/20 12:04 AM
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First I thought there was a typo in Storm. Then on visiting their site I found out that they have really given nick names to their pianos. Just for that reason only I wouldn't buy their pianos.

Anyway, either Kawai SK,GX or Yamaha CX,SX pianos, are the safe bets to order unseen.

Kawai sends a master technician for their SK line to adjust the piano at your place. That might be an advantage.

If you can afford I say go for the SK-2. You won't regret.

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hakki #2982357 05/22/20 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
First I thought there was a typo in Storm. Then on visiting their site I found out that they have really given nick names to their pianos. Just for that reason only I wouldn't buy their pianos.

Anyway, either Kawai SK,GX or Yamaha CX,SX pianos, are the safe bets to order unseen.

Kawai sends a master technician for their SK line to adjust the piano at your place. That might be an advantage.

What an idiotic reason not to buy a piano.
Ordering sight unseen if you can play is an equally dumb decision.
The MPA visit is not, to my knowledge, available to customers in every market globally.


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Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hakki #2982384 05/22/20 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Anyway, either Kawai SK,GX or Yamaha CX,SX pianos, are the safe bets to order unseen.

If you can afford I say go for the SK-2. You won't regret.

You may have a warm and cosy feeling about how consistent and reliable these models are, but even if that is actually the case it still isn't safe buying a piano unseen unless you have at least played examples of that type and know that you like them. Unless you are wealthy and have money to burn or are buying the piano for furniture or just looking for a starter piano you know you'll change later or just don't care what your piano is like.

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
terminaldegree #2982385 05/22/20 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by Hakki
First I thought there was a typo in Storm. Then on visiting their site I found out that they have really given nick names to their pianos. Just for that reason only I wouldn't buy their pianos.

Anyway, either Kawai SK,GX or Yamaha CX,SX pianos, are the safe bets to order unseen.

Kawai sends a master technician for their SK line to adjust the piano at your place. That might be an advantage.

What an idiotic reason not to buy a piano.
Ordering sight unseen if you can play is an equally dumb decision.
The MPA visit is not, to my knowledge, available to customers in every market globally.

Agreed with terminaldegree. Not liking the model name of a piano is simply not a reason to not purchase one. If most people took the view that they will not purchase something based on the name then I guess the new block of apartments next door to me that has been built and named 'The Corona' would be standing empty!

Full disclosure: the planning and the name for the block was agreed way in advance of there ever being a hint of a global pandemic called 'coronavirus'!


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Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hanumax #2982388 05/22/20 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Hanumax
@terminaldegree
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
It's possible that the piano one buys without spending time playing lots of pianos would be one the OP loves. I think many people are not as particular as the typical PW member and do not play many pianos before choosing one. OTOH I agree buying without testing a well prepped and in tune example of it is taking a chance.

Very possible... I mean the idea of picking between 10 pianos that I might like is scary... My sleep is bad enough with the current number of choices laugh

Originally Posted by gwing
The OP asking is by definition a PW member , the curse has struck, never again to be satisfied with any old piano that turns up first!

There should be a warning about this. "Leave your peace here, and get it back after 10 years and 2-3 pianos"

Originally Posted by Ubu
You can ask them directly to the factory. There's a recent thread here were a member from Peru got a very good price including transportation and taxes talking directly with Estonia as there's no dealer there.

Thanks, I'll try that. Now, does anyone in Europe have an Estonia that I might play for a while, to see if I like it? smile Will travel and bring candies/beer...
If you are not too much far away from Belgium there's a dealer called artisandupiano that has some estonias in stock according to their website. It's the only estonia dealer in europe i have found

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hanumax #2982394 05/22/20 05:45 AM
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Hanumax:

https://www.kawai-global.com/distribution/europe/
https://www.kawai-global.com/distribution/cis-africa-middle-east/

Find the nearest distributor to your location and ask whether they have an SK-2.
You may then try the instrument before you buy it.

Normally Kawais are described to have a mellower tone compared to Yamahas. Recently Yamaha has toned down its instruments and Kawai has made them a little brighter. Still they have distinctly different tones.

Kawais are said to have a little heavier action compared to Yamahas. Touch is one personal thing that only you can decide which one you like.

There is a sales pitch against Kawai from competitors that it uses plastic parts in their action.
Kawai actions are very good and precise. Discard that sales pitch against Kawai.

Again, IMO you can't go wrong with Yamaha CX,SX or Kawai GX,SK series pianos.

If you go for the Yamaha I say try to buy an C3X. It has important improvements compared to a C2X.

For more information on piano brands you might also want to check:
https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand-profiles/

Finally don't forget that an acoustic piano sounds and plays good if it is prepared by a skilled technician.
So be sure that you find a good tuner-technician.

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hanumax #2982535 05/22/20 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Hanumax
I played a bit (10 minutes) on those pianos, mostly from my curiosity to see how acoustic action really feels. I found out:
- I cannot differentiate quickly between uprights and grands in terms of action, but I could in terms of sound.

Well, one thing is for sure: if you can't tell the difference between grands and uprights in terms of action, then you've got more learning to do! As your skill improves, you'll notice a difference. All things being equal, a grand piano (of any size) is more responsive. The action is faster. The keys are ready for another strike more quickly.

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hakki #2982545 05/22/20 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Hanumax:

https://www.kawai-global.com/distribution/europe/
https://www.kawai-global.com/distribution/cis-africa-middle-east/

Find the nearest distributor to your location and ask whether they have an SK-2.
You may then try the instrument before you buy it.

Normally Kawais are described to have a mellower tone compared to Yamahas. Recently Yamaha has toned down its instruments and Kawai has made them a little brighter. Still they have distinctly different tones.

Kawais are said to have a little heavier action compared to Yamahas. Touch is one personal thing that only you can decide which one you like.

There is a sales pitch against Kawai from competitors that it uses plastic parts in their action.
Kawai actions are very good and precise. Discard that sales pitch against Kawai.

Again, IMO you can't go wrong with Yamaha CX,SX or Kawai GX,SK series pianos.

If you go for the Yamaha I say try to buy an C3X. It has important improvements compared to a C2X.

For more information on piano brands you might also want to check:
https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand-profiles/

Finally don't forget that an acoustic piano sounds and plays good if it is prepared by a skilled technician.
So be sure that you find a good tuner-technician.



agreed with Hanumax!

Buying Yamaha or Kawai will not let you down. They are like Toyota and Honda of the piano world, very consistent and always above average as minimum across models imho. I have never been disappointed with either brand, though I like Yamaha more overall, esp for the action, while I was disappointed with other brands before.

(this comes from a guy who chose the Bösendorfer grand over the other cheaper grand, a Yamaha, in a recent blind test... so I think it is safe to say I have an ear for quality pianos, lol smile )

Last edited by DreamPiano80; 05/22/20 04:08 PM.
Re: Advice please for buying new piano
DocOc #2982548 05/22/20 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DocOc
Well, one thing is for sure: if you can't tell the difference between grands and uprights in terms of action, then you've got more learning to do! As your skill improves, you'll notice a difference. All things being equal, a grand piano (of any size) is more responsive. The action is faster. The keys are ready for another strike more quickly.

I went today and played for about 1h on the Storm (first), then tried the Petrof 131 upright. I felt the action difference immediately this time. I prefer my Clavinova CSP 170 action to the upright one.
Of course, I know I got waaay more learning to do smile that's one of the reasons I'm asking for more informed/expert opinions instead of just picking whatever sounds nice at the first glance. I known I'm not good enough to make a decision for years to come.

I have written to Estonia factory, see if I get a reply; thanks to @Ubu for artistansdupiano, I might make a trip there to try.

Probably in 1-2 months, after the EU borders reopen (and hotels), I'll take a week car trip through Germany/Austria/Belgium, play more pianos and make a decision.

As for Petrof Storm. I really like the sound and the action, but I didn't feel... awed, may I say.
With the limited judgement I can make based on Youtube videos with varying degrees of microphone quality, I would still place the Kawai sound on 1st place. Maybe one of the factors is that I am learning also some jazz/blues, in addition to classical (where I'm mostly focused on Bach). Tried some simple ragtime on the Storm, sounded nice but somehow out of place (for my limited ear).

One thing is sure: I'm convinced now that going acoustic is the way to go, I'll post here whatever I decide. Thanks for all the opinions, they were very helpful.

Re: Advice please for buying new piano
Hanumax #2982602 05/22/20 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Hanumax
Hi all, I'd appreciate some opinions on my predicament smile

I have a Clavinova CSP 170 which I love and I'm looking to buy an acoustic.
I'm only at about an intermediate level, adult learner, came back to piano after 30 years of not touching one, but practicing about 2h/day and not planning to stop.

I'm based in Eastern Europe so my options of trying before I buy are very limited.

I've found a local technician that sells Petrof and August Foerster and he has some pianos, I wouldn't call it 'on display' but rather 'in his warehouse'. They are not tuned and/or voiced, they are just as they came from the factory. Piano selling is not his main source of income since he has a family business of piano tuning going back to 1896.

I played a bit (10 minutes) on those pianos, mostly from my curiosity to see how acoustic action really feels. I found out:
- I cannot differentiate quickly between uprights and grands in terms of action, but I could in terms of sound.
- I liked the Petrof sound, especially the 194 Storm
- August Foerster is not for me, it sounded.... 'old'
I plan to go again in the next days for a lengthier session of playing and to gather more data.

My budget would be about 25k euros (aprox 27.5k USD).

The Petrof 194 Storm is offered at around 24k euros, not sure if negotiable.

On the other hand, I've asked the Kawai dealer for some prices (they don't stock any model) and I found out that SK-2 would be about 30k euros... And they mentioned that it's an "informational" price, so maybe I can negotiate a bit.

There are no ways to test any Kawai (or other brand) with the current events. The only option would be to go to Vienna or any German city after borders open-up, and try some pianos, with the understanding that I could still not get most of them in my country; and paying the transport from western Europe is out of the question.
There are not many options of second-hand pianos around here, so I don't expect to buy something for 2-5 years, then trade-up... there is no trade-up.

Questions:
1. Would a Kawai SK-2 be worth buying sight-unseen? I would try to stretch my budget with the understanding that I have space to 'grow' into an SK-2 for the foreseeable future smile
2. Yamaha C2X: I can find this online in my country at about the same price as the Petrof 194 Storm. No chance to test it though... I know the Yamaha sound from my Clavinova but I'd like to diversify the sounds in the house. Would this model qualify as a 'piano to play for a long time'?
3. Didn't see many owners of Petrof 194 posting in this forum, I've searched... Are there any worries/red-flags in terms of construction quality/materials/stability? I liked the sound, not sure yet about the action, seemed way lighter than the CSP 170...

Thanks for reading all of this, and for any inputs... First time piano buying seems hard smile
Can you explain how the August Förster sounded "old"?
Is it a new piano or an older one ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 05/22/20 06:50 PM. Reason: Doubled my post
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