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Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
#2982244 05/21/20 02:50 PM
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I was surfing around and came across this abstract, to which the full report is sadly locked behind a paywall:

https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...ecovery-Analysis--Piano-Market-2020-2024

A couple of the teasers/takeaways:

-piano market and it is poised to grow by USD 267.33 million during 2020-2024

-the demand of hybrid pianos (undefined) will offer immense growth opportunities.

-coverage of vendors: CASIO COMPUTER CO. LTD., FAZIOLI PIANOFORTI SPA, Gibson Brands (they make pianos?) Grotrian, Korg Inc. Mason & Hamlin Piano Co., PETROF Spol s.r.o., Roland Corp., Steingraeber & Söhne KG, Yamaha Corp.

I don't suppose anyone here has seen the full report?


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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982248 05/21/20 02:56 PM
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So Kawai isn't slated to be a major player for 2020 onwards?

Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982260 05/21/20 03:19 PM
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Gibson owns or at least owned Baldwin— not sure of the current status.

Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982263 05/21/20 03:23 PM
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The free sample of the report has many pages blurred, some with text omitted (remplaced by « sample text ») and the full version is $2500 (Yes no zero added). No need to gives its mail address (hope they will not add spam).

No Kawai is strange... for $2500 we could expect a more complete study.


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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982267 05/21/20 03:33 PM
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At this rather special moment in time, what I'm hearing from industry folks is that there's a lot of interest in piano playing. However, most people don't have much discretionary income right now, so the interest is primarily in the low cost options for each segment of the piano market. Hybrids definitely aren't that. The "coverage of vendors" list as you stated it seems oddly selective. Sweelinck-- yes, Gibson owns Baldwin.

If I were going to point to one shortcoming of the hybrid digital piano market today, it's definitively answering the question of longevity: Most non-entry level acoustic pianos have a usable lifespan of 40-50 years in a home environment, given normal (not institutional/teaching/pro level) usage time, normal maintenance, and a relatively moderate indoor humidity conditions. Many hybrid pianos cost the same as midlevel acoustic upright pianos. Sure, they have the advantage of much lower maintenance requirements, but that's meaningless if it has a design lifespan or parts support for only 5-10 years.

One of the ways lesser known makers on the acoustic side of the industry try to reassure potential buyers is to offer longer or transferrable factory warranties. It's not something that I'd usually care about, but a 5 year warranty on a hybrid piano does not offer a ton of assurance to the buyer, compared to the long-proven acoustic alternative at the same price.


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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982271 05/21/20 03:39 PM
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I don't think the hybrid market is going to drive growth. Hybrids are a pretty niche product, they're for advanced pianists who need a good action but for some reason cannot have a real piano. That reason is usually space constraints in a small apartment.

Once you get rid of the people demanding long keys and fast repetition, you're left with people who would rather have a bottom shelf P155, or step up to an acoustic upright.

Last edited by trigalg693; 05/21/20 03:42 PM.
Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982272 05/21/20 03:44 PM
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Those unbranded "market studies" often are rubbish.

Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982273 05/21/20 03:45 PM
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One would think Steinway and Sons MIGHT have been included.



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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982276 05/21/20 03:52 PM
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I don't know what region they cover in this report, but absense of Steinway, Kawai, many top European builders, Chinese and Korean ones makes this report hardly representative.
And it was mentioned above, hybrids (both digital and acoustic based) are a niche, I would be surprised if they pass over the 5% share of the piano market as a whole.


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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982277 05/21/20 03:53 PM
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...Kawai isn’t mentioned yet Roland is? I wonder how much Roland paid for that special mention.


...but regarding the main point (hybrids taking over), I wonder where Steinway stands on this?

Steinway has stubbornly neglected to get with the times; and I’ll say it again, if they don’t change their ways, they will pay dearly for it.

No, hybrids are not toys, Mr. Steinway! These are not your average digitals of olden days. Have you tried a Novus, Mr. Steinway? Perhaps it’s not as good as your huge D, but it’s also not $200,000. As a matter of fact, you can get one for about 10K!

So what’s it gonna be, Steinway? Continue on the beaten path to hand-made obsolescence or get on with the times and build a friggin’ hybrid already!

If there’s something you still have, it’s brand recognition; but that dwindles with every sunrise and fades away with every sunset.

So I ask, again, what’s it gonna be, Steinway?


P.S.

I still have feelings for Steinway, but some times tough love grows out of necessity.
Trust me, I’ve tried to help Steinway change by being nurturing and supportive, but what has that gotten me? A player-piano by the name of Spirio! grin

Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
trigalg693 #2982281 05/21/20 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by trigalg693
I don't think the hybrid market is going to drive growth. Hybrids are a pretty niche product, they're for advanced pianists who need a good action but for some reason cannot have a real piano. That reason is usually space constraints in a small apartment.

Once you get rid of the people demanding long keys and fast repetition, you're left with people who would rather have a bottom shelf P155, or step up to an acoustic upright.

Well FWIW, it may be the desire (need) for a silent option. A hybrid takes up the same space as an upright. Even a novice player may want an instrument that is as close to an acoustic as possible. Those that can play the acoustic most of the time can get one with a silent option. Those who have to use headphones most of the time can get a digital with an acoustic action. YMMV.



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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982287 05/21/20 04:29 PM
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I’ve been eyeing up acoustics for a number of months... I wonder whether any of the current crop of hybrids will last as long as their acoustic counterparts?

10k can get you a very decent new-ish upright piano (depending on your tastes)... I’m not sure I’d ever spend that amount of money on a digital piano, hybrid or not (well knowing it would be superseded and improved-on in a relatively short space of time, rendering it worth less £ due to it being less desirable).

Regardless of the inclusion of real piano actions... the sound (and playability) is discussed enough on here to make it obvious that the general aspiration is for a DP to sound realistic too. Currently, it’s as realistic as possible. Not quite the same.

Perhaps if manufacturers were willing to build something that can be updated with reasonably-priced & improved sound technologies (over the years of ownership) 10k would not seem that steep. After-all, a genuinely acoustic action should last a long time and have the ability to be maintained/regulated. Not to mention less waste.

(and when I click my fingers, you will wake-up). 😜


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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982289 05/21/20 04:37 PM
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You're probably right. But thanks to VST’s, I can’t see any reason to buy another piano. Unless, circumstances changed to allow for a grand. But even then, I would buy one with a silent system allowing me to play whenever the mood strikes. So it would still be a hybrid. cool



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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982291 05/21/20 04:40 PM
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May I suggest a TransAcoustic-TA2?

Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
trigalg693 #2982292 05/21/20 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by trigalg693
I don't think the hybrid market is going to drive growth. Hybrids are a pretty niche product, they're for advanced pianists who need a good action but for some reason cannot have a real piano. That reason is usually space constraints in a small apartment.


That's why I noted that hybrid is "undefined" in the abstract. Many (most) of us here define hybrids as "digital pianos with acoustic actions" - the AvantGrand and Novus.

But it could also include higher end DPs like the Kawai CA-99 and Casio GP-501....or on the other end it could be acoustic pianos with digital record/play features (PianoDisc, Disklavier, Spirio, Transacoustic, Aures, etc.). I think it was mentioned once that Spirio is really driving new Steinway sales....maybe that's the "hybrid" concept where this huge "growth potential" is coming from.


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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982293 05/21/20 04:45 PM
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Agreed!



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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982294 05/21/20 04:47 PM
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I doubt proper hybrid pianos, the way we know them here, will drive the market. But digital pianos are certainly outselling acoustic pianos in a hugely disproportionate quantity, so maybe they mean high end digital pianos are now finally considered *pianos*, and so they will drive the piano market.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/21/20 04:47 PM.

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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982297 05/21/20 04:49 PM
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I don’t buy this notion that ‘Spirio is driving new Steinway sales’. There’s nothing new to see there (other than keys mysteriously moving on their own).

By the way, the Grantouch DGT2-XG has self-moving keys, too (released in 1998). Of course, Steinway claims that no other player-piano plays like the Spirio, but I’m still waiting for the data supporting this claim.

Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Pete14 #2982299 05/21/20 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
If I were going to point to one shortcoming of the hybrid digital piano market today, it's definitively answering the question of longevity: Most non-entry level acoustic pianos have a usable lifespan of 40-50 years in a home environment, given normal (not institutional/teaching/pro level) usage time, normal maintenance, and a relatively moderate indoor humidity conditions. Many hybrid pianos cost the same as midlevel acoustic upright pianos. Sure, they have the advantage of much lower maintenance requirements, but that's meaningless if it has a design lifespan or parts support for only 5-10 years.

This is a really good point that gets very little airtime here. I'm fortunate enough to afford a hybrid, but there's no way I'm considering it my "lifetime piano." In fact, I'll probably keep it as long as a typical high-end digital owner keeps their CLP-675 (maybe a bit longer with a VST).

Originally Posted by Pete14
I don’t buy this notion that ‘Spirio is driving new Steinway sales’. There’s nothing new to see there (other than keys mysteriously moving on their own).

By the way, the Grantouch DGT2-XG has self-moving keys, too (released in 1998). Of course, Steinway claims that no other player-piano plays like the Spirio, but I’m still waiting for the data supporting this claim.

I was a bit unclear. I didn't intend to say that people are buying Steinways because of Spirio, but I had heard (perhaps apocryphally) that a significant majority of new Steinways are sold with Spirio buiilt-in. Even assuming it's true, those are two different statements.


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Re: Hybrid Pianos to drive industry growth in 2020 forward?
Gombessa #2982304 05/21/20 05:25 PM
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Oh, so Steinway is forcing the Spirio on their customers. That’s so Steinway!

BTW, when you’re done with your NV-10, I’d be happy to take it from your hands if the price is right. smile

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