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Joined: Sep 2009
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I wasn't clear. I was thinking about the supply chain economics side of things.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I also think there's no problem whatsoever creating long plastic key sticks. And you can still make them folded which will effectively be just half the length of a regular straight key for the same pivot length. On an acoustic piano you need the action behind the keys because the hammers hit strings. In a digital piano you don't need that. This reminds me DSLR cameras. They followed in the steps of film SLR cameras where you need a mirror in front of the film that will reflect the light towards the viewfinder but needs to be retracted when making the actual picture. A totally unnecessary mechanical complexity. And a digital camera doesn't need that at all because you can directly project on the sensor and look through the electronic display without the need for a mirror. Took them years to realize that. Which is why Canon and Nikon lag behind Sony now. (All of them suffer because of smartphone photography anyway)

OT, but the mirror was needed because they could not make fast and accurate enough CDAF on CMOS sensor (CMOS could overheat, and its read speed sucked, especially in tracking AF modes), and they already had reliable SLR mirror mechanics to achieve 10+fps. They just had to modify mirror to partially reflect light to PDAF sensor instead of investing heavily into technology used in mostly low end P&S.
Add to this a shorter battery life because of hungry EVF circuit.
This is where SONY, unable to compete in DSLR market, found their chance to disrupt the high end market.
But today Canon DPAF is already up to par with SONY if not better (IMO it is better in many areas).
Nikon mirrorless is still lagging behind, and I can only hope they will achieve a comeback considering their financials and dependency on sensors munufactured by SONY - 2 players is not enough for healthy market. Panasonic becomes a niche player with bleak future IMHO.
But the main issue with mirrorless is lag and relative lack of resolution of electronic viewfinder - this is where many, myself included, still prefer heavier DSLR.

Last edited by VladK; 05/20/20 01:51 PM.

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^ Makes sense, thanks. I have a Fuji mirrorless that I use to shoot my piano videos and only occasionally for portraits of the kid and its electronic viewfinder is great but for more regular shooting it’s probably not that great.

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/20/20 01:50 PM.

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Plastic actions do not have a stiffness problem. I recall my Roland FP7F with PHA3 action didn't have much of the way in lateral stabilization at the front of the key and it did not have a problem at all. I also have no problem with folded actions, I can't tell the difference between folded and Kawai GF actions.

As far as pivot length goes, 23cm is where my chords and double notes stop getting messed up. If Roland makes a 23 or 24cm stage piano, I'm buying 2 of them.

Last edited by trigalg693; 05/20/20 02:02 PM.
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+1 to Vlad's explanation. I had the original Nikon D1, even then we waxed about mirrorless/EVF being the eventual holy grail. It's taken a much longer time to get there than we would have originally expected!


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Typically, the pivot length is uniform along the keybed, but the D pivot length increases dramatically towards the bass. Those keysticks are huge (and at least in this example, the distance from front of key to balance pin ISN'T uniform.

Sorry yes of course. I mangled the point I was trying to make. The Steinway D action is angled because the strike point is so far into the piano in the bass. Most (but not all) concert grands are like this.

In general the overall key length doesn't tell you anything of substance about the action. Steinway's figure for the longest key is irrelevant, regardless of the action. It's just more irrelevant for a concert grand.... 😁

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Where are the moderators when you need them? laugh

This madness has to stop! Be content with what you have and stop envying your neighbor’s pivot!
Pivot envy is bad!


P.S.

The bush is always greener and bushier across the fence (is that how the saying goes?) grin

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Pete is helping Moses by adding an eleventh commandment:

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors pivot.

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How about faking you have a long pivot? Like purchasing a short-stick Casio PX-S1000 and then covering the rear side in a deep fake (no pun intended) cabinet that would make the impression of hiding a monster-pivot underneath? Isn't there industry for that?

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/21/20 08:27 AM.

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Well, there is a market for hubcaps..
Originally Posted by CyberGene
How about faking you have a long pivot? Like purchasing a short-stick Casio PX-S1000 and then covering the rear side in a deep fake (no pun intended) cabinet that would make the impression of hiding a monster-pivot underneath? Isn't there industry for that?

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I know a newly minted piano builder who might take on such a project. smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
How about faking you have a long pivot? Like purchasing a short-stick Casio PX-S1000 and then covering the rear side in a deep fake (no pun intended) cabinet that would make the impression of hiding a monster-pivot underneath? Isn't there industry for that?

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Originally Posted by Pete14
I kid you not, before I came here I did not care about any of this. I would buy a new piano only if my old one broke beyond repair. NAMM? what the heck is that, I used to think.

Fast forward to today, and no matter how much I like my piano, I have to upgrade every two years (or sooner) because, you know, Gombessa says there’s something new out there with better speakers!

Haha! It's even worse with me: I'm a beginner and haven't even received my NV10 yet, and now I'm sitting here googling VSTs because some people keep writing about those...

However, I'll stick with the on-board sounds. Definitely.

I think.


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I could glue the keys from one DP onto the end of the other. I figure I'd have pivots that would make any concert grand feel inadequate. I would probably have 2cm key travel though...

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...and the madness continues!

It seems like we all have a subconscious yearning for something......bigger.
A void -of sorts- that can only be filled by huge pivots!

And guess what, Yamaha is taking notes: ‘The GrandTouch has the longest pivot of any digital piano’, they say!

No, Yamaha didn’t brag about the current Clavinovas’ sound engine, nor the improved speakers, nor the built-in audio interface (those were mentioned incidentally); no, it was all about the huge pivot.

They have us by the pivots, you guys. Yamaha and others have finally figured us out: “they’re obsessed with pivot size, so let’s forget about everything else and give’em longer pivots”.

Don’t you see, guys, we’re being played; and it’s not by a virtuoso like Ms. Wang, but rather by greasy engineers at Yamaha!

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There's another way to look at this.

It's not really about getting a digital piano that's better and better and better than an acoustic.
Rather, it's about finding a digital piano that's at least close to "as good as an acoustic".

I haven't found one yet.

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Yamaha and others have finally figured us out: “they’re obsessed with pivot size, so let’s forget about everything else and give’em longer pivots”.

Except Casio.

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When it comes to longer levers and pivots ... they should consult with Archimedes.

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Originally Posted by Pete14
They have us by the pivots, you guys. Yamaha and others have finally figured us out: “they’re obsessed with pivot size, so let’s forget about everything else and give’em longer pivots”.

Don’t you see, guys, we’re being played; and it’s not by a virtuoso like Ms. Wang, but rather by greasy engineers at Yamaha!


YES, but we want longer pivots at LOWER Prices. Give us Big-Pivots at the $500-1000 lvl.

Last edited by jeffcat; 05/21/20 11:17 AM.
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You guys, I just read about a recent discovery of a parallel universe where time runs backwards, left is right, right is left, etc...

Is it fair to assume that long is short in this parallel universe? if so, could that possibly mean that there might exist a version of us, obsessed, but with short pivots rather than long?

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