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Re: You guys are infectious
camperbc #2981324 05/19/20 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by camperbc
I have not even once, in almost 7 months of playing this instrument daily, ever had even the slightest issue with the pivot length having a negative effect on my playing. (and I do play quite far back on the black keys!)

Well, it's not the black keys that are usually the problem, it's the white keys that you have to reach between the black keys. If your thumb starts on a black key while playing a large chord, there's not a lot of space for the rest of your fingers to go but deep towards the fallboard, and maintaining consistent dynamics becomes harder when some of your fingers are riding right against a short pivot point while others are farther away.


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Re: You guys are infectious
Gombessa #2981332 05/19/20 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by camperbc
I have not even once, in almost 7 months of playing this instrument daily, ever had even the slightest issue with the pivot length having a negative effect on my playing. (and I do play quite far back on the black keys!)

Well, it's not the black keys that are usually the problem, it's the white keys that you have to reach between the black keys. If your thumb starts on a black key while playing a large chord, there's not a lot of space for the rest of your fingers to go but deep towards the fallboard, and maintaining consistent dynamics becomes harder when some of your fingers are riding right against a short pivot point while others are farther away.

Nope, no troubles with the white keys either. Like I said, I don't understand why some people struggle with this.

Re: You guys are infectious
KevinM #2981334 05/19/20 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by camperbc
I suppose that my Casio PX-870's keys may possibly have one of the shortest pivot lengths, (I recall someone on here making that statement) but honestly, to me it's all pretty much nonsense. I have not even once, in almost 7 months of playing this instrument daily, ever had even the slightest issue with the pivot length having a negative effect on my playing. (and I do play quite far back on the black keys!) I'll never understand why folks will make such a big deal over something that is so not a big deal. I mean, I'm admittedly pretty picky, but come on now.

I suspect that my opinion might not make me too many friends on here, but while others tirelessly debate (argue?) the pros and cons of "pivot length", I'll just keep myself occupied and content by playing some lovely music on my very nice, affordable digital piano!

Not at all.

My feeling is players with long experience and deep skill like yourself are able to deal with tools that are not the best ones for the job without even noticing.

Whereas weaker players like myself struggle to achieve the sensitivity of touch required to provide the desired dynamics. I could always wait until I have those skills, but I prefer to better enjoy my playing now. So rather than complain about my tools I bought better tools so I can better enjoy my playing now.
hmmm... I really don't know for certain, but that could possibly be it, KevinM. It would help explain why someone who is less advanced may have issues with it, while one who is more skilled/experienced doesn't really notice.

Re: You guys are infectious
camperbc #2981341 05/19/20 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by camperbc
Nope, no troubles with the white keys either. Like I said, I don't understand why some people struggle with this.

Simply, I think it's because some people are used to something different. If it doesn't bother you, that's all the better, you don't have anything to worry about smile


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Re: You guys are infectious
Gombessa #2981403 05/19/20 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Ugh, I would love to agree with you, but I just checked the official table:

Code
Official PW pivot length table
----------------------------------

Short                                  Medium                                           Long
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NU1X (18cm)
NV5 (??)
     N1X/N3X (23cm)
                                     Steinway Model D (31cm)
                                                                                  NV-10 (26cm)

Hmm, a troubling thought just occurred to me, only you know where the Cybrid lies. The ultimate dark horse candidate!

I think the Steinway figure is based on the assumption that the balance intercepts the key exactly in the middle. This would probably be the case with the shortest key, but Steinway gives a measurement of the longest key, so it's not possible to work out the distance to the pivot point from this figure. Bear in mind that all the keys have the same distance from the front to the balance pin, so the differences are on the far end. Having said all that, I think it's still around 30cm.

Last edited by johnstaf; 05/19/20 11:21 PM.
Re: You guys are infectious
CyberGene #2981405 05/19/20 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
As to the second, the best bang-for-buck piano with a rather long pivot is the Yamaha N1X which is cheaper than the NV10 and has some unique features missing in the NV10, hence is better bang-for-buck laugh
+1 thumb grin


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Re: You guys are infectious
KevinM #2981406 05/19/20 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
I don’t think I would like less than 22cm which is the length of the action in a Roland FP-90. That felt acceptable.

I think that 22cm is ok. I don't mind going between my grand and my FP-90, but I don't really like anything noticeably shorter. This was my biggest gripe with my Kawai MP-10, or the VPC-1. I just find shorter keys uncomfortable for some pieces.

When it's long enough I don't really care. I wouldn't consider key length a factor in choosing between and N1X and an NV-10 for example.

Last edited by johnstaf; 05/19/20 11:32 PM.
Re: You guys are infectious
KevinM #2981414 05/20/20 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
Not at all.

My feeling is players with long experience and deep skill like yourself are able to deal with tools that are not the best ones for the job without even noticing.

Whereas weaker players like myself struggle to achieve the sensitivity of touch required to provide the desired dynamics. I could always wait until I have those skills, but I prefer to better enjoy my playing now. So rather than complain about my tools I bought better tools so I can better enjoy my playing now.

So, would this mean a shorter pivot action is actually a better practice tool, as it requires more sensitivity to control, so it forces you to develop better sensitivity?

Re: You guys are infectious
jeffcat #2981416 05/20/20 12:39 AM
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Just wanted to peep in, not sure I understand all of this, but I definitely understand more about the innards of digital pianos than I did a few days ago. And you guys are fargin funny to read.

One serious question, can I avoid the infection by wearing a mask? grin


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Re: You guys are infectious
U3piano #2981417 05/20/20 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by U3piano
Originally Posted by KevinM
Not at all.

My feeling is players with long experience and deep skill like yourself are able to deal with tools that are not the best ones for the job without even noticing.

Whereas weaker players like myself struggle to achieve the sensitivity of touch required to provide the desired dynamics. I could always wait until I have those skills, but I prefer to better enjoy my playing now. So rather than complain about my tools I bought better tools so I can better enjoy my playing now.

So, would this mean a shorter pivot action is actually a better practice tool, as it requires more sensitivity to control, so it forces you to develop better sensitivity?

That may well be true. But the cost is reduced enjoyment on the journey of learning the piano. Adults take considerably longer to learn fine motor skills than children, so I am happy to take this shortcut to enjoyment.

Re: You guys are infectious
Oddsox #2981418 05/20/20 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Oddsox
Just wanted to peep in, not sure I understand all of this, but I definitely understand more about the innards of digital pianos than I did a few days ago. And you guys are fargin funny to read.

One serious question, can I avoid the infection by wearing a mask? grin
No, but wearing a mask makes everyone else’s pivot length longer.

Re: You guys are infectious
KevinM #2981421 05/20/20 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
No, but wearing a mask makes everyone else’s pivot length longer.

LOL Nicely done!


The piano ain’t got no wrong notes.
~ Thelonious Monk
Re: You guys are infectious
jeffcat #2981500 05/20/20 07:49 AM
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I'm waiting until they release the new Clavinovas with InfinitePivotTouch™ keys smile

Having keys that pivot is so 18th century... get with the times people!

Last edited by Burkie; 05/20/20 07:54 AM.

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Re: You guys are infectious
jeffcat #2981548 05/20/20 09:27 AM
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CME Xkey have infinite pivot wink

Re: You guys are infectious
_sem_ #2981591 05/20/20 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
I think the Steinway figure is based on the assumption that the balance intercepts the key exactly in the middle. This would probably be the case with the shortest key, but Steinway gives a measurement of the longest key, so it's not possible to work out the distance to the pivot point from this figure. Bear in mind that all the keys have the same distance from the front to the balance pin, so the differences are on the far end. Having said all that, I think it's still around 30cm.

Just to be absolutely clear, the "chart" is just something I made up out of thin air, because I knew CG wouldn't be able to resist responding wink

The 31cm number for the Steinway D is "accurate" as far as I know, and of course in reality it would sit with other 9-10ft pianos in the "longest" end of the spectrum. For those who are interested, look at the difference between a "mere" 7ft Steinway B:
[Linked Image]

and a 9ft Steinway D:
[Linked Image]

Typically, the pivot length is uniform along the keybed, but the D pivot length increases dramatically towards the bass. Those keysticks are huge (and at least in this example, the distance from front of key to balance pin ISN'T uniform.

Originally Posted by _sem_
CME Xkey have infinite pivot wink

That's really the key to solving the problem for compact digital pianos. You CAN easily have any pivot length you desire, including "infinite" if you just get away from a simple lever. Casio could make an even shorter keybed than that in the PX-S1000, with a pivot length longer than any piano, but I assume it would increase mechanical complexity and build cost.


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Re: You guys are infectious
jeffcat #2981607 05/20/20 11:05 AM
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Pouring over photos of keybeds all of yesterday, It seems indeed user-KevinM is correct about the Artificial dichotomy of Wood+Lengthier keysticks vs Folded Shorter Plasti-keys.

There's absolutely no reason they can't make longer sticks out of plastic. If it's a rigidity issue, just use more plastic, abs injection molding is very stable and straight these days. Even if that's not enough (which i doubt), they can easily slide an aluminum extrusion under the plastic and it'd cost next to nothing. It costs about as much as coat-hanger wires.

Unfortunately the more people pay the luxury tax, the more bold they are with widening the gap between trivial design features.

Last edited by jeffcat; 05/20/20 11:09 AM.
Re: You guys are infectious
jeffcat #2981610 05/20/20 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffcat
Pouring over photos of keybeds all of yesterday, It seems indeed user-KevinM is correct about the Artificial dichotomy of Wood+Lengthier keysticks vs Folded Shorter Plasti-keys.

Huh, who said you can't make longer actions out of plastic? The Roland Grand Hybrid action is 26cm, longer than the AvantGrands and the Grand Feels. The Yamaha GrandTouch is right up there, too. Those are definitely in the "long enough to no longer matter" category.


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Re: You guys are infectious
jeffcat #2981612 05/20/20 11:12 AM
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You have experience with manufacturing costs?
Originally Posted by jeffcat
... they can easily slide an aluminum extrusion under the plastic and it'd cost next to nothing.

Re: You guys are infectious
jeffcat #2981618 05/20/20 11:18 AM
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I also think there's no problem whatsoever creating long plastic key sticks. And you can still make them folded which will effectively be just half the length of a regular straight key for the same pivot length. On an acoustic piano you need the action behind the keys because the hammers hit strings. In a digital piano you don't need that. This reminds me DSLR cameras. They followed in the steps of film SLR cameras where you need a mirror in front of the film that will reflect the light towards the viewfinder but needs to be retracted when making the actual picture. A totally unnecessary mechanical complexity. And a digital camera doesn't need that at all because you can directly project on the sensor and look through the electronic display without the need for a mirror. Took them years to realize that. Which is why Canon and Nikon lag behind Sony now. (All of them suffer because of smartphone photography anyway)


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Re: You guys are infectious
MacMacMac #2981627 05/20/20 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You have experience with manufacturing costs?
Originally Posted by jeffcat
... they can easily slide an aluminum extrusion under the plastic and it'd cost next to nothing.

Yes, I am a cnc machinist. I am the factory.

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