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#2981096 05/19/20 11:10 AM
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At first, I thought, I don't really care about the action. BUT, you guys have contaminated me over the short time I've been here.

What is the best bang-for-buck DP on the Action front w longest pivot.

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Originally Posted by jeffcat
What is the best bang-for-buck DP on the Action front w longest pivot.


Kawai Novus NV-10. 26.2cm.

Some say there is more to an action than just pivot length, but we don't talk to those people here!


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In terms of bang per buck starting with cheapest IMO Kawai CA48/49 then CA78/79 then NV5/10.

Roland has some good options like LX05/706/708. But they had higher price points and less availability for me the last time I checked.

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Some say there is more to an action than just pivot length, but we don't talk to those people here!
+1

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On a purely bang for pivot length buck, I suspect the Roland FP-90 might be the winner.

Last edited by KevinM; 05/19/20 11:37 AM. Reason: fp 90 not 30
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You joke, jeffcat, but this ‘infection’ is very real and has already cost me too much!

When I first visited this place I had no idea about long/short pivots and their so-called effect on playability. Sampling vs. Physical modeling? (what the heck is that). Looping, short decay, stretching, low velocity count, folded action bad, escapement fake, new piano around the corner, digital pianos suck, etc.......

I kid you not, before I came here I did not care about any of this. I would buy a new piano only if my old one broke beyond repair. NAMM? what the heck is that, I used to think.

Fast forward to today, and no matter how much I like my piano, I have to upgrade every two years (or sooner) because, you know, Gombessa says there’s something new out there with better speakers!

I check into this infectious place everyday (giddy with excitement) waiting for Kawai James to announce something new, or for some member to have a link to paradise, or for at least some speculation on the next big thing. Needless to say, I rarely come across any of this, and my initial excitement turns into depression. But why? I ask. Why can’t I just be happy with what I have and simply sit down and practice.......

10 minutes later, I’m back here again; and round and round we go! frown

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Originally Posted by jeffcat
What is the best bang-for-buck DP on the Action front w longest pivot.

This is contradictory. Do you ask which piano has the longest pivot or which one is the best bang-for-buck piano among those with long pivots?

You had an answer to the first question. As to the second, the best bang-for-buck piano with a rather long pivot is the Yamaha N1X which is cheaper than the NV10 and has some unique features missing in the NV10, hence is better bang-for-buck laugh

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/19/20 11:36 AM.

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Has any member made a chart or table w/ pivot lengths ?

Last edited by jeffcat; 05/19/20 11:59 AM.
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Once the pivot length gets too long, the need to reinforce the key or be very careful about the quality/selection of the materials increases. Otherwise the key will flex along its length, which completely negates the control advantages of having a long pivot length.


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I hope some members of this forum won't get offended but I believe one of the cleanest signs of being a PW n00b is to obsess with the pivot length alone and declaring it as the holy grail of digital pianos laugh

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/19/20 12:26 PM.

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Are you saying that size DOES matter? smile
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Some say there is more to an action than just pivot length, but we don't talk to those people here!

To the original question ... I don't think there can be a meaningful answer unless someone defines "bang for the buck".

I know what a buck is, but how do you specify a quantity of "bang".
You cannot. So this becomes just another "I like this more than that" contest.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
You had an answer to the first question. As to the second, the best bang-for-buck piano with a rather long pivot is the Yamaha N1X which is cheaper than the NV10 and has some unique features missing in the NV10, hence is better bang-for-buck laugh

I love how this topic is just destined from day 1 to be a quagmire smile

Let us not forget that the N1X and rest of the AGs may not even qualify as "long" pivots wink At a mere 23cm, they lose out in length to the Grand Feel I/II/III, as well as a number of folded plastic actions (Yamaha GrandTouch, Roland Hybrid Grand)! The silken glove thus used to slap your cheek, I cast it down upon the floor!


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Now you've done it ...
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Let us not forget that the N1X and rest of the AGs may not even qualify as "long" pivots. At a mere 23cm, they lose out in length to the Grand Feel I/II/III, as well as a number of folded plastic actions ...
I'll need a new piano soon ... and just when I was leaning away from the NV10 and toward the N1X, you throw a stone at the latter.

What am I to do? frown

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
You had an answer to the first question. As to the second, the best bang-for-buck piano with a rather long pivot is the Yamaha N1X which is cheaper than the NV10 and has some unique features missing in the NV10, hence is better bang-for-buck laugh

I love how this topic is just destined from day 1 to be a quagmire smile

Let us not forget that the N1X and rest of the AGs may not even qualify as "long" pivots wink At a mere 23cm, they lose out in length to the Grand Feel I/II/III, as well as a number of folded plastic actions (Yamaha GrandTouch, Roland Hybrid Grand)! The silken glove thus used to slap your cheek, I cast it down upon the floor!

I think all you need is acceptable pivot length. This is where CyberGene and I always cross swords. He thinks 18cm is ok whereas I disagree. I know 24 cm is fine since that is what I have with GF. I don't think I could tell the difference going down to 23 cm from GF, so somewhere between 18 and 23 is for me where the switch between having the touch control over the keys is good or not.

Key weight is also important, but it is made complicated that static weight is the easy thing to measure so that is what those who measure key weight measure, but I think the dynamic weight is more important so I've never been bothered with the key weight discussions. I'll just to wait until someone starts measuring and recording dynamic weight from keyboards I'm interested in.

As to wooden or plastic action, I just don't know how you could differentiate the two just on feel. To me wooden action is used for marketing as an indicator that the rest of the action is better quality than the actions you'll find that are made from plastic.

Whether an action is folded or not, I think is used as another marketing indicator. There should be no reason why a properly designed folded action could not feel exactly like a non folded action.

Last edited by KevinM; 05/19/20 01:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by CyberGene
You had an answer to the first question. As to the second, the best bang-for-buck piano with a rather long pivot is the Yamaha N1X which is cheaper than the NV10 and has some unique features missing in the NV10, hence is better bang-for-buck laugh

I love how this topic is just destined from day 1 to be a quagmire smile

Let us not forget that the N1X and rest of the AGs may not even qualify as "long" pivots wink At a mere 23cm, they lose out in length to the Grand Feel I/II/III, as well as a number of folded plastic actions (Yamaha GrandTouch, Roland Hybrid Grand)! The silken glove thus used to slap your cheek, I cast it down upon the floor!

Yes, but the talk is about best bang-for-buck pianos here, which automatically excludes all regular digital piano actions because they are BAD. (their bang is close to zero, and so bang for buck is close to zero, so we don't consider them) wink And then there are the NV5 and NU1X with shorter pivots. So, we have NV10, N1X, NV5, NU1X, thus in a list of 4 pianos that are good bang, N1X is second, so it can be considered having "long" pivot in the pivot length competition. Then you add the real dampers in the NV10 which justifies the higher price. But then you add the binaural, the much more advanced hammer+key sensing system, multi-channel playback, USB-interface in the N1X.

And voila, we have the best bang-for-buck piano among those with long pivot!

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/19/20 01:07 PM.

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Ugh, I would love to agree with you, but I just checked the official table:

Code
Official PW pivot length table
----------------------------------

Short                                  Medium                                           Long
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NU1X (18cm)
NV5 (??)
     N1X/N3X (23cm)
                                     Steinway Model D (31cm)
                                                                                  NV-10 (26cm)

Hmm, a troubling thought just occurred to me, only you know where the Cybrid lies. The ultimate dark horse candidate!


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I think all you guys that just have to have the longest of pivot lengths are just trying to compensate for something else.

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How come a Steinway that's 5cm longer than NV10 is considered "Medium" and the NV10 is "Long"?!

And how come N1X that's just 3cm shorter than NV10 is considered "Short" and is in the same ballpark as other pianos that are another 5cm shorter than N1X?

That table is made by a Kawai fanboy laugh

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/19/20 01:19 PM.

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BTW, the Cybrid trumps the N1X by just 0.5cm, just measured it at 23.5cm on the white keys laugh


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Hopefully people can tell here that we're not (wholly) just derailing the thread, we're just poking a bit of fun at ourselves. Pivot length gets brought up frequently here, and since it's quantitative and easy to measure (unlike just about any other aspect of how an action works/feels), it tends to get overemphasized when comparing actions. And lately it's become the latest "checkbox spec" by manufacturers hawking their high end DPs.

So yes, there is a difference in pivot lengths, and generally speaking, a longer pivot length makes for a more consistent keyweight from front to back. But there's a lot more to the story there....IMO, an objectively "short" pivot length such as the NU1X can feel easier to play and more realistic than a longer pivot length action such as a Yamaha GH or Roland PHA-50.


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