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Subwoofer needed or not ?
#2979437 05/15/20 11:48 AM
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For DPs line out. Is a big 10-12inch woof required for the bass or are basic 6 inch w/ tweeter enough to cover the range.

Just for the piano sound, don't care bout other instruments.

Last edited by jeffcat; 05/15/20 11:50 AM.
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Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979448 05/15/20 12:08 PM
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I recently added a sub. It has made a noticeable improvement in my untreated room. I had a pretty big dip between 60-80Hz before which has been eliminated with the sub. My monitors go down to 45Hz so that wasn’t the problem. It was due to room acoustics. Since the sub is positioned on the floor instead of at ear level it has a different profile.


Yamaha N1X, P-515.
Genelec 8331 monitors and 7350 sub.
VI’s: Garritan CFX, VSL Bösendorfer Upright, and VSL Blüthner 1895. Pianoteq.
Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979453 05/15/20 12:26 PM
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Is there very noticeable woofing going on when you play the low notes, or is the effect subtle.

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979465 05/15/20 12:45 PM
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When I compared 5" to 8" Yamaha monitors, the lower octave sound was very different - 5" was very thin. Not sure how big the difference would be with 6", but have you considered selling 6" and buying 8" instead of buying a separate sub? The less crossovers - the better IMHO.


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
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Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979467 05/15/20 12:47 PM
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I have a huge subwoofer in a smallish room. It is awesome for organ, synths, action movies, jazz music, etc.

For the digital piano, the subwoofer is very subtle, barely noticable. I think it brings a bit of the ambience and a bit of tactile feel to the lowest registers so enjoy it. A few times the subwoofer inadvertently was unplugged for a few days and I didn't notice lol.

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
VladK #2979473 05/15/20 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by VladK
When I compared 5" to 8" Yamaha monitors, the lower octave sound was very different - 5" was very thin. Not sure how big the difference would be with 6", but have you considered selling 6" and buying 8" instead of buying a separate sub? The less crossovers - the better IMHO.

8 inch is where you start to get a decent amount of distortion due to driver size. Smaller has less distortion.

The difference you were hearing is more likely related to the response curve of the driver rather than the size-up.

But it also could be more air moved = more realistic piano physics being a big resonating wooden box.

Last edited by jeffcat; 05/15/20 01:10 PM.
Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979477 05/15/20 01:20 PM
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I would say no to a woofer. This is a piano, not a bass guitar.

And even if you needed one you'd have to spend BIG. The cheap ones I've heard are crap.

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979486 05/15/20 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffcat
The difference you were hearing is more likely related to the response curve of the driver rather than the size-up.

But the frequency response curve definitely depends on the driver size, at least for the same technology and materials used for woofer, right?

There is no way 8 and 6 would have close frequency response curves in lower part of spectrum, 8 and 7 produced by different makers with different tech behind may achive a similar curve IMO (and in this case the woofer with lighter and stiffer cone may sound cleaner or harsh/dry, again - it depends).

Personally, for piano I would prefer a traditional cone design and materials to avoid any chance of coloration, and traditional usually means bigger size, but again - this is subjective and very personal. I love rumbling grand piano basses, but this does not mean distorted!

If not a fear of my wife ( wink ), I would buy a pair of good 3-way monitors, such as KH 310, but have to live with what I have on my table already.

Separate sub in general would make sense if it is in 10-12" range, but it is pretty much useless for acoustric piano IMO. And may even make basses sound worse in a room with bad acoustics.

Last edited by VladK; 05/15/20 01:42 PM.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
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Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979489 05/15/20 01:51 PM
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First I had a pair of Tannoy 12” speaker, great sound but it was too big. I bought a pair of Energy 6” for my digital, do I miss deep bass ? No, piano is a middle range instrument.



“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
- Robert Schumann

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979494 05/15/20 02:02 PM
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I have the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors (with 5.25" woofers) for my Casio PX-870, and I can assure you that no subwoofer is necessary. There is indeed ample bass (which you can actually feel) in the lower register... very similar to that of a quality acoustic.


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Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979497 05/15/20 02:09 PM
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Here is what you need 12" PA or sub for grin

[Linked Image]



Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
Vlad,
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Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979531 05/15/20 03:00 PM
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A 12” PA driver is not the same as a 12” woofer. A 12” PA will have a frequency response similar to small studio monitors. The larger driver is needed with the PA to move enough air to fill a large space with those frequencies.

You only need frequency response down to 55Hz for piano monitors unless you care about the best possible reproduction of the first 1/4 to 1/2 second of the lowest octave notes. Once the soundboard resonance takes over, you only get the harmonics, so the low A at 27.5Hz is producing sound only as low as 55Hz after that point.

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979541 05/15/20 03:15 PM
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Quote
But the frequency response curve definitely depends on the driver size, at least for the same technology and materials used for woofer, right?
A smaller driver can have a longer excursion and behave like a larger driver with less excursion. A significant limiter of bass response is enclosure size. Most studio monitors have tuned ports that extend bass response by a few Hz at the expense of a much steeper roll off below the port tuning frequency in comparison to the roll off slope of an acoustic suspension enclosure.

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
camperbc #2979545 05/15/20 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by camperbc
I have the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors (with 5.25" woofers) for my Casio PX-870, and I can assure you that no subwoofer is necessary. There is indeed ample bass (which you can actually feel) in the lower register... very similar to that of a quality acoustic.

Do you think Eris E7 XT's would be overkill for a small/medium room?

I don't like my jbl lsr305's, and I'm thinking about replacing them with either E5 xt's or E7 xt's.

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979552 05/15/20 03:55 PM
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I am running a pair of 8” Mackie monitors and bass is definitely not an issue. I get the rumbling sound of a concert grand. What is interesting is if I have the monitors positioned at ear height, the sound is there, but there is a disconnect feeling on the bass end, as if one is hearing the sound emanate from a pair of stereo speakers rather than the piano and the tone is brighter. But if I position the monitors on stands 8” from the floor, I get a darker sound and the bass will send vibrations to my keyboard and fingers, which feels very authentic.

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
camperbc #2979553 05/15/20 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by camperbc
I have the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors (with 5.25" woofers) for my Casio PX-870, and I can assure you that no subwoofer is necessary. There is indeed ample bass (which you can actually feel) in the lower register... very similar to that of a quality acoustic.


[Linked Image]

Nice setup. It appears at ear height, you are positioned right at the bass cones? Do you experience any loss of the high end?

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
20/20 Vision #2979587 05/15/20 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
Originally Posted by camperbc
I have the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors (with 5.25" woofers) for my Casio PX-870, and I can assure you that no subwoofer is necessary. There is indeed ample bass (which you can actually feel) in the lower register... very similar to that of a quality acoustic.

[Linked Image]

Nice setup. It appears at ear height, you are positioned right at the bass cones? Do you experience any loss of the high end?

Thanks, 20/20 Vision! They are actually mounted a bit above ear height, but I usually have them angled down a little more than is shown in that photo. But regardless of how they are pointed, I experience clear, tinkly highs, authentic mids, and deep lows. In fact, prior to my getting the wall-mount brackets, I had my E5 XT's just placed right on the floor, tucked in under the piano... and even THAT sounded great!

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
U3piano #2979588 05/15/20 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by U3piano
Originally Posted by camperbc
I have the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors (with 5.25" woofers) for my Casio PX-870, and I can assure you that no subwoofer is necessary. There is indeed ample bass (which you can actually feel) in the lower register... very similar to that of a quality acoustic.

Do you think Eris E7 XT's would be overkill for a small/medium room?

I don't like my jbl lsr305's, and I'm thinking about replacing them with either E5 xt's or E7 xt's.
U3piano, I'm sure that the new E7 XT's would be great also, though they are much pricier than the E5 XT's. But if you are concerned about whether the E5 XT's will provide enough bass, I assure you that they will indeed get the job done without having to resort to the larger E7's.

Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
jeffcat #2979599 05/15/20 05:55 PM
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Vlad! That's exactly how I play the piano! So I guess I need a sub.

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Re: Subwoofer needed or not ?
camperbc #2979601 05/15/20 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by camperbc
Originally Posted by 20/20 Vision
Originally Posted by camperbc
I have the Presonus Eris E5 XT studio monitors (with 5.25" woofers) for my Casio PX-870, and I can assure you that no subwoofer is necessary. There is indeed ample bass (which you can actually feel) in the lower register... very similar to that of a quality acoustic.

[Linked Image]

Nice setup. It appears at ear height, you are positioned right at the bass cones? Do you experience any loss of the high end?

Thanks, 20/20 Vision! They are actually mounted a bit above ear height, but I usually have them angled down a little more than is shown in that photo. But regardless of how they are pointed, I experience clear, tinkly highs, authentic mids, and deep lows. In fact, prior to my getting the wall-mount brackets, I had my E5 XT's just placed right on the floor, tucked in under the piano... and even THAT sounded great!

Thanks for sharing. I like your setup!

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