Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Ronsen Weickert vs. Wurzen

After a couple of delays, the rebuild of the 1902 NY D is hopefully getting back on track. First there was the lid broken in transit, but they recently found the correct cut of highly figured Cuban mahogany veneer and the new lid is now on the way from Germany. Then there was the replacement soundboard, which somehow did not maintain sufficient crown. We now have a beautiful new board from Ciresa with a very healthy, stable crown (8mm I think), and the shop is augmenting the ribbing a little to make sure it stays that way long-term. And of course COVID 19 is slowing things down greatly.

Anyhow, its finally time to order the hammers. To review, the piano will be in a 1,200 seat historic church--choir work, solo concerts, and chamber music; definitely not concertos. After much research generously supplied by the professionals on this community my choice has narrowed to two of the felts Ronsen uses, Weickert Special or Wurzen AA. I would ordinarily lean towards the tone of a softer hammer (I have Ari Isaacs on my home instrument) but for this application Ray suggests Wurzen.

I obviously trust Ray's judgment(!) but I would just like to be clearer in my own mind regarding the trade-offs involved. I have the impression that the Weickerts would need significant chemical hardening whereas the Wurzens might do with less or none. But what then? Will the Wurzens always have an inherent advantage in power? Or would the juiced Weickerts always have an advantage in depth of tone? And which would maintain better over time?

So I am looking for those who have worked with these hammers in similar applications to share your experiences. Thanks so much in advance; I so appreciate everyone who gives a little of their time to help others who know less.

Also, for reference, here is the info from the website. Great info, but I wish the relative comparison between the two was made a little clearer:
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The Legendary Weickert special felt, is the latest development in hammer felt recently re-introduced by the Wurzen felt co. of Germany. This is the Ronsen Co's new flag ship hammer of choice for all high end restoration. This uniquely produced felt was used on all Steinways and many other quality Pianos for 90 years prior to WW-2. This particular felt produces our most versatile hammer. Inherent in its characteristics are its fantastic ability to create enormous sustain, tone color and power with very little voicing. Our goal is to produce a hammer that requires only light needle work initially and later minor shoulder voicing. Play in time develops this hammer further. The hammer plays in quickly and is easily maintained. Light Maple is the suggested molding for this felt.

The Wurzen felt Co.--- AA felt has been a formidable industry presence since 2003 and is the felt of choice by many hammer makers in Europe, America and around the globe. It too provides for a powerful sound and gorgeous tone color production in a wide range of piano types. This hammer is easy to develop with light shoulder needling to increase sustain and color.

Some will say that the Weickert felt doesn’t required much or any hardening. In fact that was my impression of them. I was surprised when I was dealing with some hammers that produced no dynamic range and I contacted Ray and he provided instructions for applying lacquer-diluted solution to the shoulders. I felt like that’s what they needed but from what I had heard they weren’t supposed to need that.

But the dynamic range of the piano increased tremendously after the voicing work. It’s a decent sounding piano now.

When asking questions about tone there really is no answer anyone here can give.

All of the Ronsens are very good hammers, i have used all of them my throughout my whole career. Many Techs i know prefer the Bacon felt as it closely imitates hammers of the early 20th Century. I have also used the VFG felt, which are Rays hardest felt hammers with excellent results. There is also the choice of Moulding- Sapele or Maple. And inner felt versus no inner felt. Really the only way to know what final Hammer line you want, is to try them all and experience what each one gives. So it is most likely best to follow Rays advice as a starting point.

There is a PDF out there that is the ERWIN method for voicing Ronsens. I do not recommend it. I tried his procedure and it kills the sustain and projection. With any cold pressed hammer, voicing up will be needed if you want evenness. Ronsen hammers offer a wide palette, they can give plenty of power at FFF and beauty at ppp.


A recent improvement for voicing up is using Paraloid B-72 instead of any lacquer. The reason for this is Two fold. First, It is mixed with alcohol which wicks into the felt better than acetone or lacquer thinner. Plus it don't stink. Second, B-72 is a hardner that maintains its flexibilty, unlike Lacquer that is brittle, thus pinging is more easily avoided. So a cleaner tone is developed.

-chris

I think this is ideal advice. The Wurzen AA hammers are very good—I’d be much more concerned about who is voicing the hammers. If they’re quality hammers and the technician has proven experience nicely voicing them, then it’s a good choice

Joe and Chris, thanks so much for the helpful replies. As I said, my default is to go with Ray's advice. Its just that it is clear that some people have put Weickerts on performance Ds and been happy with it. Also, the write-up on the website and his pricing seem to imply that that Weickert is a better, more premium product.

With respect to the technician voicing it, well, that is part of the equation. I think we just have to say that there is a difference between what is available in the US and what is available in the UK (at least outside of London). 90% of the voicing work here, if not more, will be on Renner. I am fairly confident that the rebuilder will get it to a good baseline, but I have less confidence in our local tech (who also serves the big concert venues and university) being able and willing to use the very different protocol to voice either of these Ronsen hammers. I am not above doing the chemical part myself, as I did with my home instrument, but that is definitely not the preferred option.

Greeting,s
I haven't yet put any hardener on a Weikert hammer. In keeping with Andre Oorbeek's approach, I voice them much like the normal Renner protocol, in that a flexible low shoulder combined with increasing stiffness in the upper shoulder( the "pad"), and, at times, medium shallow needles in the 11:00=11:30 area. The more important experience is sensing the flexibility in the felt as the needles do their work, and that does come from experience. The hammers are ALWAYS too soft when I first finish with the voicing, but there is so much resilience in this felt that the hammers brighten up after several days time as the inner compression tends to resolve outwards. There is a fullness that is not evident after the first pass of the needles. Even then, the first 10 hours of play will cause a distinct return of attack and the hammer will then respond to light needles, (2 mm with a small diameter needle) about on the end of the string contact line as the hammer is used. It was not uncommon in the practice rooms for a semester's use to move the tone from soft and malleable to harsh, but with a well-prepped foundation, I only had to deal with the area from 10:00 to 11:30 to keep them from splitting eardrums, (students will play hard enough to break strings on a bright piano with the lid open in a small room !).
I can't recommend "The Voice Of The Piano" by Oorbeek highly enough to get a foundation view of these hammers.
Regards,

Well I'm not a technician and don't actually know anything about hammers but I did find this video several years ago when I was considering changing the hammers on my previous piano. It shows the Ronsen Wurzen vs. Renner on a Steinway B. You can hear it better with good headphones.

Ed,
Thanks for responding to the thread!

Your post gives me encouragement for using the Weickerts. I am pretty sure that both my rebuilder and the local tech would willingly follow that protocol, since (as you say) it is pretty close to what they would ordinarily do with Renners.

You happened to give the example of your practice room pianos, but I take it this is also true for Blair's concert instruments as well? Do you happen to have any direct comparison with the Wurzens?

That book you recommended is sadly not easy to obtain. The only source I have found is in Germany: https://www.pianoteile.com/unsecure...&objid=A472056&page=1&red=pr
Anyhow, I will take your high recommendation, and will attempt to buy it.

You can try and get this auction before it’s snatched up:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/113368087800

On a side note, I studied in the UK and befriended the technician there. He was a great guy and a very good technician. I’d trust him with most any work, and he’s open-minded enough to try and accommodate your desires. He was very proactive on working up the instruments (Steinway, Bluthner, Bosendorfer, etc.). His name is Rodney Davidson and he wouldn’t just work in London although I think he lived in Blackheath. Here’s a LinkedIn profile. Perhaps you could use the Weickerts if you want and then get Rodney to voice?

https://www.linkedin.com/in/rodney-davidson-tcm-tuner-1a733637

George,
Thanks very much. I have actually listened to that recording a couple times, and I listened to it again just now. I am really thankful that Reggie went to the trouble of recording and posting it. The Ronsens definitely sound better to me. I wish there were more such videos. It also reminds me why I am looking forward to this project getting done--I grow tired of these Renners on our C. The treble is fine but the tenor is so mundane and two-dimensional. All velocities sound much the same.

However, I confess I wish he would have used a stereo pair of omnis set off a little from the piano instead of (apparently) close-miking it. You do not get to hear much of the sound as it is fully developed and projecting out from the lid, which is what I am most interested in. Perhaps this is just me, but I could only barely tell it was a B and not a smaller piano.

I was about to Buy it Now when I realized it was in French. You overestimate me!

Thanks very much for the contact. I wish I could use him, but I am about as far away from London as you can get. I understand there are several techs based in London that work on NY instruments but we are not so well resourced as to pay a travel day on either side of a work day up here in the north.

Yikes, sorry about that I didn’t realise. Here’s another link, not sure if it’s better or worse than the one you turned up.

https://www.crescendo-music.com/en/article/68052/oorebeek-andre_the-voice-of-the-piano.html

I wish I could be of more help as far as a technician!

I had Ronsen Wieckert hammers installed on my NY Steinway B coming up on 3 years ago now. I had the opportunity to visit a Steinway rebuilder here in Indiana who always has a variety of Steinways of all sizes and vintages in stock. He also uses a wide variety of Abel, Renner, and Ronsen hammers. I was able to play on about 15 pianos in the same room blindly not knowing what hammers had been installed. After I had played them all and gone back to the ones I really liked, he told me that every one I preferred had Ronsen Wieckert hammers installed. That sealed the deal for me.

My technician who installed them (not the same one - local to Indianapolis) had another NY S&S B in his shop that he had just put Ronsen Wieckert hammers on, so I was able to play that piano before making the final decision. He did very little treatment on my hammers, just a little B72 on the lowest bass notes and top treble octave. He also did very little needling. He brought the action back to my house and let me hear them before he touched them. He said they would play in nicely and quickly. They did! It's been over 2.5 years, of daily playing for 1+ hours a day, and I'm just now thinking that they may need a little touch up. He said it's important to let the hammers play in if at all possible for longevity and durability.

I honestly don't see how you can go wrong with Ronsen hammers.

Just my .02.

Thanks so much. We have just asked Ray for some samples of each to be sent out, in (David Love's) low profile spec. I will try to remember to send another update after the next step.

In another thread, someone I admire was wondering why a customer should ever tell a tech which hammer to use. I appreciate that perspective entirely. I too am a professional with a long list of formal qualifications ("terminal degree" was already taken for a screen name, but it applies) who does usually not appreciate the ill-informed telling me how to do my job.

However, I think we would all recognize that the situation outside North America is significantly different. The very idea that one might chose from an entire spectrum of potential parts (whether hammers, or soundboard makers, or action parts) is fairly new in the UK. Indeed, the only relatively "high volume" shop doing rebuilds told me outright that he would not even consider anything other than Hamburg-spec Renners, even though this is a NY instrument! When I again asked the highly skilled boutique rebuilder who got the contract to make the decision on which hammer to use, he replied: "Look, up until recently, all we ever had here was Renner and Abel hard-pressed. You were the one who introduced me to soft-pressed hammers for the R, they sounded fantastic, and I think we would be better off if you do the research on this one as well." So in at least this one case, the client gets to tell the tech which hammer to use because the tech actually wants it that way.

Sounds exciting Erchoukrie! Yes, keep us posted here on your decision and how the project goes. I think your situation is pretty rare here in the US. Those of us who frequent PianoWorld are a different breed. Usually, the technician advises the client and the client goes along. That was the reaction I received from several rebuilders I talked to. When I mentioned that I wanted Ronsen Weickert hammers and WNG action, I was politely referred to a specific rebuilder in our area by more than one rebuilder. He is the only one in a large radius for hundreds of miles in all directions who works with the parts I chose. I had another Steinway-trained Concert level technician tune it recently, and the let me know that he was happy to tune any time, but he would not do any regulation or voicing work because of his inexperience with my set up.

Greetings,
"Not do any regulation <snip> because he was inexperienced with your set-up"? I wonder at that. There is no difference in the regulation of a WNG action and any other, (except that it needs far less of it). Drop is drop, dip is dip, etc. It is also curious that a Steinway-trained Concert level technician says they can only work on Steinways because these pianos are not standardized, i.e. their actions are all different, and usually the optimum regulation will depart from the factory published specs in several ways, (blow distance for starters). Different vintages have different ratios, different hammers, and different leading. Even the same vintage will have a variety of string heights. If one is truly a concert level tech, they know how to read a Steinway action's idiosyncrasies, and if so, they can certainly figure out how to regulation a composite action. I suspect there is a brand loyalty at work here, not a technical lacuna.
Regards,

You needn’t feel any hesitation asking for certain parts from a technician! There are multiple quality parts and technicians have their own preference and skill set. Using your comparison to a ‘terminal degree’, it’d be somewhat similar to someone who did their doctoral work on the performance and interpretive practices of 19th century pianists and another who did theirs on a musical and cultural analysis of Scriabin’s piano music—they may have developed similar skills in terms of research and writing, but their specialisation was in different areas.

So ... it’s worth saying that you could even get a really nice sound from NY Steinway hammers. The two most gorgeous Steinway D’s I’ve ever heard were NY models with NY Steinway hammers. The technicians working on those pianos knew how to get the best out of those hammers.

Well said.

SS "official" position is that if it does not have all "genuine" SS parts it is no longer a SS but rather a SW.
😂
Pwg

Thanks, everyone; I am so thankful for all your contributions to this thread.

BTW, I absolutely considered Steinway NY hammers. The problem is that there is no hope of staying away from the NY voicing protocol that includes chemicals (again, the local techs are, at the very least, inexperienced in it if not unwilling). Same, I think, goes with Ronsen Bacon. So it is either Weickert or Wurzen. We *hope* that the replacement soundboard will have something like the impedance characteristics of the original, and will thus match well with a soft hammer of relatively moderate mass.

Anyhow, we will just try the samples and see.