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Is this video bad advise?
#2977152 05/09/20 06:27 PM
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This is what I have currently started doing on top of Hanon 1-31. I actually started doing so on my own initiative without actually knowing about this video or hearing from anyone else about it.

But apparently this is wrong and bad and I am 'inventing' things that don't actually work or some such.

Oh 7:13 is the part I am referencing, the link In had skipped right to that part. Maybe I should watch the rest of it too.

Last edited by Bhav; 05/09/20 06:30 PM.

'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'

- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
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Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977159 05/09/20 06:49 PM
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Maybe you should watch the entire thing. Start At 8:58 in particular ‘ I will say this again, we do not use our fingers..... ‘ and keep watching as he discusses rotation


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977163 05/09/20 07:07 PM
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It is better to get advice from your teacher in how to play technical exercises. There appears a variety of opinions on the correct way to play. This video in a way addresses this in the start. However watching YouTube or going online you most often get conflicting advice. These may disagree with your teachers view. I probably am different in that I don't use YouTube as a resource for technique. I find it useful when there are videos about music theory and score analysis.

Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977166 05/09/20 07:14 PM
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He doesn’t have a teacher and doesn’t want one. Teachers give bad advice and teach wrong is his opinion.
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2977143/re-where-do-i-start-again.html#Post2977143


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977170 05/09/20 07:31 PM
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Ok I see. I have never played Hanon exercises but I can see if you don't have a teacher then seeking advice on YouTube and online can be a problen. Some of the things in this video, such as stretches, could cause injuries so I would be careful with them.

Re: Is this video bad advise?
dogperson #2977173 05/09/20 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Maybe you should watch the entire thing. Start At 8:58 in particular ‘ I will say this again, we do not use our fingers..... ‘ and keep watching as he discusses rotation

I never said not to rotate the hands.

I said not to turn the hand fully onto its side so that the pinky is hitting the keys vertically, to explain it with more precision, or as I said before not to 'karate chop' the keys.

To play from the fingertips, and not from the side of finger 5.

The wrist is always going to rotate, but flipping it 180 degrees between the thumb and pinky is bad and going to sprain it like mine did. My hands were full tilting all the way onto their sides and pressing the keys with the side of the knuckle of the pinky finger. I am pretty certain that you and anyone else does not play like this.

I would probably need to make a video to explain this.

Last edited by Bhav; 05/09/20 07:41 PM.

'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'

- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
Re: Is this video bad advise?
dogperson #2977178 05/09/20 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
He doesn’t have a teacher and doesn’t want one. Teachers give bad advice and teach wrong is his opinion.
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2977143/re-where-do-i-start-again.html#Post2977143

Way to take things out of context.

Teachers that claim Hanon is in anyway bad and not to play from the fingertips are definitely bad and teaching wrong. Funny that not one professional or expert pianist whose recordings you can watch on YouTube play how people here seem to be advising. They most definitely all press finger 5 from the fingertip and not vertically from its side.

All I have stated is not to turn the wrist such that you end up playing with finger 5 like this:

[Linked Image]

Am I incorrect?

Last edited by Bhav; 05/09/20 07:47 PM.

'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'

- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977180 05/09/20 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Bhav
Originally Posted by dogperson
Maybe you should watch the entire thing. Start At 8:58 in particular ‘ I will say this again, we do not use our fingers..... ‘ and keep watching as he discusses rotation

I never said not to rotate the hands.

I said not to turn the hand fully onto its side so that the pinky is hitting the keys vertically, to explain it with more precision, or as I said before not to 'karate chop' the keys.

To play from the fingertips, and not from the side of finger 5.

The wrist is always going to rotate, but flipping it 180 degrees between the thumb and pinky is bad and going to sprain it like mine did. My hands were full tilting all the way onto their sides and pressing the keys with the side of the knuckle of the pinky finger. I am pretty certain that you and anyone else does not play like this.

I would probably need to make a video to explain this.
I think technical advice is best left to experienced teachers and/or advanced players.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 05/09/20 07:52 PM.
Re: Is this video bad advise?
Moo :) #2977183 05/09/20 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Ok I see. I have never played Hanon exercises but I can see if you don't have a teacher then seeking advice on YouTube and online can be a problen. Some of the things in this video, such as stretches, could cause injuries so I would be careful with them.

Everything can cause an injury, is it advised to avoid going to a gym or doing any sports? Because all of those carry a greater risk of injury.

I am also living proof that playing without doing technical exercises causes injury as this already happened to me. As far as teachers go, the only thing they gave me in 15 or so years of being unable to play with my pinky fingers in the first place was Hanon 1, and that's was the single only 'warmup' I knew until I injured my wrist. I only later found out it was actually Hanon 1 after buying myself the book to try and relearn, and it took me a long time to undo the damage that playing with no technical training to begin with had caused.

The only reason I haven't had a teacher since finishing education is because I can't afford one, and YouTube is free. And on that note it's pretty hypocritical how so many people here were previously telling me 'learn to sight read on your own, stop blaming not having had a teacher for that', but now call me out for claiming I don't have a teacher?

No teacher I had during my school years taught me anything worthwhile, why would one that I would now have to pay for be any better?

Last edited by Bhav; 05/09/20 07:59 PM.

'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'

- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
Re: Is this video bad advise?
pianoloverus #2977189 05/09/20 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Bhav
Originally Posted by dogperson
Maybe you should watch the entire thing. Start At 8:58 in particular ‘ I will say this again, we do not use our fingers..... ‘ and keep watching as he discusses rotation

I never said not to rotate the hands.

I said not to turn the hand fully onto its side so that the pinky is hitting the keys vertically, to explain it with more precision, or as I said before not to 'karate chop' the keys.

To play from the fingertips, and not from the side of finger 5.

The wrist is always going to rotate, but flipping it 180 degrees between the thumb and pinky is bad and going to sprain it like mine did. My hands were full tilting all the way onto their sides and pressing the keys with the side of the knuckle of the pinky finger. I am pretty certain that you and anyone else does not play like this.

I would probably need to make a video to explain this.
I think technical advice is best left to experienced teachers and/or advanced players.

Was Hanon considered a teacher and/or advanced player? Also no advanced player on YouTube that I have seen ever fully flips their hands into their sides to use finger 5. Do you? Because weak amateur / untrained hands do that by nature, trained hands do not, and should not. If you keep on flipping the wrist like this, finger 5 will never improve or be able to play from the fingertip, which I know because mine were always useless.

Last edited by Bhav; 05/09/20 08:03 PM.

'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'

- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977190 05/09/20 08:02 PM
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Read your own post you wrote a shirt while ago where you write about bad teachers

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2977143/re-where-do-i-start-again.html#Post2977143


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Is this video bad advise?
dogperson #2977191 05/09/20 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Read your own post you wrote a shirt while ago where you write about bad teachers

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2977143/re-where-do-i-start-again.html#Post2977143

Yes I've read it and know what it says and stand by what it says.

Hanon was a superior teacher than anyone that dismisses his methods based off nothing more than herd mentality. Get over it.

I have not heard any rational or logical reason for why this is, other than such things as loads of people thinking Nickelback are a terrible band just because all their friends also think so.

Last edited by Bhav; 05/09/20 08:07 PM.

'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'

- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977192 05/09/20 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bhav
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Ok I see. I have never played Hanon exercises but I can see if you don't have a teacher then seeking advice on YouTube and online can be a problen. Some of the things in this video, such as stretches, could cause injuries so I would be careful with them.

Everything can cause an injury, is it advised to avoid going to a gym or doing any sports? Because all of those carry a greater risk of injury.

I am also living proof that playing without doing technical exercises causes injury as this already happened to me. As far as teachers go, the only thing they gave me in 15 or so years of being unable to play with my pinky fingers in the first place was Hanon 1, and that's was the single only 'warmup' I knew until I injured my wrist. I only later found out it was actually Hanon 1 after buying myself the book to try and relearn, and it took me a long time to undo the damage that playing with no technical training to begin with had caused.

The only reason I haven't had a teacher since finishing education is because I can't afford one, and YouTube is free. And on that note it's pretty hypocritical how so many people here were previously telling me 'learn to sight read on your own, stop blaming not having had a teacher for that', but now call me out for claiming I don't have a teacher?

No teacher I had during my school years taught me anything worthwhile, why would one that I would now have to pay for be any better?

If you can't afford a teacher then it may be better to follow a method book. If you don't have a teacher and have been injured doing these exercises then if may be better to not do them.

I personally for 10 years as a child would normally just play with fingers on keys without special movements. Arm weight and rotational movement I think are more advanced but they have there uses. I now use arm weight to get a louder sound in places and rotational movements only when get faster ascending or descending passage. When and how to use is not easy to learn.

I am aware others have different ideas of how to play but I will leave it by saying it is complicated. I would try and just get basic hand positions and try to play some music. I am self teaching at the moment due to coronavirus and stopped playing technically hard music and definitely no technical work !

Re: Is this video bad advise?
Moo :) #2977197 05/09/20 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Originally Posted by Bhav
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Ok I see. I have never played Hanon exercises but I can see if you don't have a teacher then seeking advice on YouTube and online can be a problen. Some of the things in this video, such as stretches, could cause injuries so I would be careful with them.

Everything can cause an injury, is it advised to avoid going to a gym or doing any sports? Because all of those carry a greater risk of injury.

I am also living proof that playing without doing technical exercises causes injury as this already happened to me. As far as teachers go, the only thing they gave me in 15 or so years of being unable to play with my pinky fingers in the first place was Hanon 1, and that's was the single only 'warmup' I knew until I injured my wrist. I only later found out it was actually Hanon 1 after buying myself the book to try and relearn, and it took me a long time to undo the damage that playing with no technical training to begin with had caused.

The only reason I haven't had a teacher since finishing education is because I can't afford one, and YouTube is free. And on that note it's pretty hypocritical how so many people here were previously telling me 'learn to sight read on your own, stop blaming not having had a teacher for that', but now call me out for claiming I don't have a teacher?

No teacher I had during my school years taught me anything worthwhile, why would one that I would now have to pay for be any better?

If you can't afford a teacher then it may be better to follow a method book. If you don't have a teacher and have been injured doing these exercises then if may be better to not do them.

I personally for 10 years as a child would normally just play with fingers on keys without special movements. Arm weight and rotational movement I think are more advanced but they have there uses. I now use arm weight to get a louder sound in places and rotational movements only when get faster ascending or descending passage. When and how to use is not easy to learn.

I am aware others have different ideas of how to play but I will leave it by saying it is complicated. I would try and just get basic hand positions and try to play some music. I am self teaching at the moment due to coronavirus and stopped playing technically hard music and definitely no technical work !

I injured from playing WITHOUT EVER HAVING DONE ANY technical training, how many times must I repeat that?

I spent age 5-23 playing pieces without doing any exercises beyond now and then Hanon 1 as that is all my school teacher had shown me AND MY RIGHT WRIST TORE from my hand over turning too much when trying to learn Maple Leaf Rag. ***HANON EXERCISES REHABILITATED THIS TEAR AND HAVE ALLOWED THE WRIST TO PLAY AGAIN***

I am yet to find one single person who has damaged a wrist from actually doing technical exercises such as Hanon, in fact I am 100% certain that sufficient technical training is mandatory to prevent such damage that had happened to me, like having to stretch and warm up before sports.

Please show me who and how many people have had an injury from learning Hanon? Googling shows zero other than the herd of sheep who simply spout that they think it can because all the other sheep say as such!

Well actually I guess it can cause damage ... If you actually play them from over turning the wrist instead of from the fingertips as advised!

Last edited by Bhav; 05/09/20 08:41 PM.

'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'

- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977266 05/10/20 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Bhav
I injured from playing WITHOUT EVER HAVING DONE ANY technical training, how many times must I repeat that?

I spent age 5-23 playing pieces without doing any exercises beyond now and then Hanon 1 as that is all my school teacher had shown me AND MY RIGHT WRIST TORE from my hand over turning too much when trying to learn Maple Leaf Rag. ***HANON EXERCISES REHABILITATED THIS TEAR AND HAVE ALLOWED THE WRIST TO PLAY AGAIN***

Please show me who and how many people have had an injury from learning Hanon? Googling shows zero other than the herd of sheep who simply spout that they think it can because all the other sheep say as such!
!

That is probably the issue that you started to play pieces too difficult for your technical level, potentially without enough warm up. If you had poor teachers, thats unfortunate. They should have developed first your hand flexibilty and resilience and extensibility.

The Hanon 1-20 are kind of ok. I have played them all and they are very repetitive. Probably about 3 or 5 of them cover the rest. They are actually more interesting to play in all keys. Like any exercice if you overdo them or play them the wrong way it could lead to injury. But well done they can be beneficial. But i would not recommend to play only Hanon and if one does, a small amount is more than enough. To address specific skills there are plenty of other exercices developped by great pianists who are much more suited.

The type of exercices that Hanon wrote was pretty much the standard 200 years ago, there are plenty of instructional books published in that same period that present more or less the same thing. Hanon was presenting these exercices in the context of a completely stiff hand. No wrist movement was allowed and only fingers were playing. A technique inherited from harpsichordist playing on light keyboards. Since then, keyboards get heavier and so the technique and the exercices to develop it evolved. Again i am not saying Hanon is bad, any exercice can be beneficial when done properly but Hanon is very dated and the time investment versus benefits is poor. That said i am not trying to convince anybody.

Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977271 05/10/20 03:53 AM
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What is supposed to work then? Because Scales and Arpeggios don't work for my fifth finger either.

Playing Hanon as intended without moving the wrist is the only method I have found that is allowing my fifth fingers to finally play anything without any strain!

If anyone says Colin Etude 10 op 1, how am I supposed to play that prior to my fifth fingers being able to even press a single key from the fingertip? Handing me that prior to Hanon would have destroyed my hands faster than Maple Leaf Rag did!

Anything else that people claim works is much higher level and physically harder than Hanon 1-31! If you think Hanon is dangerous and can potentially cause damage, where is the logic in somehow expecting me to be able to learn finger independence with a much vastly harder Chopin etude or similar exercise?

The Hanon exercises are simple, and if you play them slowly, without strain, from the fingertips as they are intended then I can't see how anything harder is actually safer or less potentially damaging for training finger independence! If someone literally cannot press a key with the fingertip of their pinky finger, anything else that requires as such is going to be far more damaging than careful training of Hanon exercises! I literally know this from my own hands and already having had rehabilitated an ulnar sided wrist sprain, and any 'teacher' telling me otherwise is nothing but an idiot.

Last edited by Bhav; 05/10/20 04:01 AM.

'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'

- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977273 05/10/20 04:04 AM
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I watched several videos with Fitch, I've got impression that he uses good traditional approach to teaching piano. I haven't met anything in his videos that I would consider wrong, I think his videos are safe to follow.

Liszt once said that it's not that important what you play as an exercise, but it's important how you play it. Hanon exercises can be played in many different ways developing different skills. According to Russian school approach, it's first of all required to learn to play using arm weight, that means playing utilizing your upper arm muscles and using wrist as a shock-absorber, and only then, after several years, a student may proceed to finger training.

Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977276 05/10/20 04:14 AM
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I was always playing with my arm weight for the first 15+ years I played up to my injury when I started trying to use my little fingers.

For the record I was already able to play Minute Waltz and The Entertainer comfortably at age 17, however I didn't use finger 5 at all in either piece. Everyone what watched me play noticed and criticized this and one teacher taught me Hanon 1 to try but on the same notes without ascending as a 5 finger exercise and that was it. I did this one exercise a lot then moved on to Maple Leaf Rag and as everyone was telling me to I started trying to use finger 5 more and then it broke from the wrist as much a wrist can break without the bones being damaged.

Last edited by Bhav; 05/10/20 04:15 AM.

'Its too rare to break a hand from playing the piano ... But playing Hanon as written will break your hand'

- Self proclaimed 'piano teachers' on the internet.
Re: Is this video bad advise?
Bhav #2977283 05/10/20 04:31 AM
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If you watch carefully those videos about rotation you ll hear that the movements that are shown are exagerated on purpose. The faster you go, the less visible (smaller) that arm rotation becomes.
I tried to hold my wrist from moving when learning Arabesque by Burgmuller and there s no way I can get those fast passages even that way (especially the left hand). Only after I tried to use my arm weight and move my arm at the same time did I see a difference. Before that, I was going nuts literally.
I am no expert and this is coming from personal observation.
I also think someone needs to show me / you personally and corect me/ you when learning this.. a video alone is not enough
As mentioned above, you seem to ignore the fact that Hanon was coming from a different instrument
Schumann is probably “famous” for what he did to his fingers.


Kawai ES110

Re: Is this video bad advise?
Moo :) #2977289 05/10/20 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
I personally for 10 years as a child would normally just play with fingers on keys without special movements. Arm weight and rotational movement I think are more advanced but they have there uses.
You need to teach armweight within the first few lessons otherwise it could easily take years to break down and then build up the habits.

At the end of Chopin op. 25 no. 1 my LH pinky karate chops. Supinating the wrist is the quickest most efficient way to get there.

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