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What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
#2976765 05/08/20 07:55 PM
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I started taking lessons for the past 1.5 years as an adult (24 years old when I first started). I self taught using Alfred Book 1 prior to taking lessons all be it poorly (good at sight reading, but rhythm was poor). I have had no prior musical experience (literally did not listen to music much either nor came from a musical household).

I selected a conservatoire graduate teacher whom also teaches in a conservatoire to children as well as in private schools. I did this as I knew that my natural musical talent (poor rhythm and pulse) is not high aside from the theoretical aspects, sight reading and dexterity.

Lessons have until very recently was very difficult for both my teacher and for myself. It was difficult for him to instil some rhythm and beat into me. It was difficult for me to absorb something that is not intuitive.

With the above you may be wondering why I embarked on such a journey. I felt there were some voids in my life lack of hobbies are my parents did not believe in extracurricular activities (including music). Having been largely hobbiless all my life, I have got my medical degree and have satisfied the expectations set upon me. So now, I am in the position to pursue the things that were lacking in my childhood. I am not taking any formal exams.

I take 45 mins lessons and practice for roughly 1h per day. Lessons were on the whole weekly, aside from when he went on holiday and I had to do weekend shifts in the hospital.

My teacher has not used any method books with me. He selects new repertoire pieces each week or so such as Nuvole Bianche, Kliene Elegie (Manfred schmitz), Ecossaise Weber, Song of twilight, Wiosna (Chopin), Song of Kangding, Plasir d' armour etc. He also adds in some Hannon exercises.

I have not practiced any scales. I also have not had any corrections or direction in regard to arm, forearm or hand positions. No aural training either (if there is such a thing with piano teachers- if there is please enlighten me how may that occur)

I was wondering what others have experienced in terms of their lessons:
1) Do you use method books or just repertoire pieces?
2) How much of the focus is on scales and exercises like Hanon?
3) During you lesson at what proportion (time wise) do you review your last week's piece compared to teaching of a new piece ?
4) Why may my teacher not like it when I select a repertoire piece, I neither select a piece that it too overtly hard nor too easy with nothing to gain. (I review several arrangements and test them out before presenting the piece to him)
5) What would the lessons be like in my 2nd-3rd years of lessons? Did you have more emphasis on theory/ techniques and exerices / repetoire in later years?
6) I would like to know about others response to having a teacher whom is exceptional but rather critical - I have to admit there was a period of time that I would feel very demotivated to practise after having a lesson with him.

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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976767 05/08/20 08:04 PM
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Haha I posted in your other thread over in the piano forum.

Last edited by WeakLeftHand; 05/08/20 08:05 PM.

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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976769 05/08/20 08:14 PM
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Have you asked your piano teacher about why you haven't done scales, Hanon, etc? Perhaps he feels this isn't where your time is best spent at this point in your musical journey. Or perhaps he thinks adults don't want to deal with monotonous practice regiments.

I am on my first year and have been given a few scales, but no Hanon. I prefer to ask about specific technical problems I have, and my teacher usually has a good response and sometimes an exercise to go along with it.

I've learned an hour a week (or every other in my case) is limited, so I try to learn what I can over Youtube and reserve my teacher's time for what she can give active feedback on (a shortcoming of Youtube). There are so many wonderful online resources to learn theory and technique, and often on the specific piece you are working on.

Last edited by offkey; 05/08/20 08:19 PM.
Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976774 05/08/20 09:06 PM
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Thanks for the replies. Yes I have asked him regarding the scales and Hanon. He asks me back whether I want to do some. You may be correct in saying that he may feel that adults would fint them monotonous. I have expressed to him that I do not find them dull and can do them if they are beneficial.

Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976787 05/08/20 09:51 PM
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Are you working to a syllabus of some sort, or do you just make it up week by week? Did you agree on a long term plan when you started?

Regardless of anything to do with exams, you might feel more comfortable if you have a pre-agreed, fixed structure of technical work, method book and repertoire pieces, from one of the training schools. That might give you a bit more feeling that you’re in charge of the process, and to know what you ought to be doing.

Then, like others have said, you use the teacher for very specific feedback on whatever you’re working on.


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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976789 05/08/20 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ay9293
Lessons have until very recently was very difficult for both my teacher and for myself. It was difficult for him to instil some rhythm and beat into me. It was difficult for me to absorb something that is not intuitive.

This, in my estimation, is the most significant thing you need to address.

I would suggest that you need to be working on the simplest of music that you can absolutely play perfectly and concentrate on the rhythm and beat.

And ... keep ... working on simple things that are easy for you to play and concentrate on developing that rhythm and beat concept.

You need to be able to master it.

If you do not play "on time" .... you can throw the rest away.

No-one enjoys listening to a piece of music played out of time.

So, that would be what I would ask your teacher to work with you on .... no matter how painful.

Good Luck


Don

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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976796 05/08/20 11:01 PM
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You can ask your teacher to work with you on rhythm, technique, and theory for a year. Throw away all the repertoire for now--they are probably too hard for you, anyway. That's some unusual repertoire you have going on there. Did you pick those pieces?

You need a well-balanced program that covers all the basics of piano. Don't let one or two aspects of piano lag behind the development of other skills.

I have received students who are testing at level 7, but their sight reading was so far behind, they can't do level 2 sight reading. By then, it was hopeless.

Buy a metronome, or download one onto your phone.


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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976801 05/08/20 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ay9293
Lessons have until very recently was very difficult for both my teacher and for myself. It was difficult for him to instil some rhythm and beat into me. It was difficult for me to absorb something that is not intuitive.

My early years seemed much the same, there is so much to learn, it doesn't necessarily feel instinctive, and you really need a good and patient teacher. Looking back, years 2 & 3 felt like the piano journey was a bit aimless, in need of structure but at the same time also a consolidation of what had been learned up to that point. A good teacher should have a long term plan, and may decide to hold off on adding things, (ex scales, ear training, etc), until the student is ready for the extra work load. I didn't have the best of teachers at that time, so I chose to go about finding one.

In regards to the original question, I thought I might compare what lessons used to be like and to what they are now. However I find lessons are a little difficult to describe because the very word insinuates instruction. I have always found lessons lighter on instruction, more like presentation and assessment, and/or discovery. The structure of my lessons started to change when I chose to start taking exams. Up to that point there had been no (or minimal) discussion of the things I list below. When I did decide to take exams, there was no magic instruction that suddenly started, but there did feel like there was more purpose and direction to the lesson. However, most of the technical work relies on a daily exercise regime, requiring more practice time. About all a teacher can do is sporadic testing to see if there is progress. Lessons remain much the same, but with stricter focus on repertoire, eventually performance, and an assessment on progress of the technical work.

Scales and Arpeggios - a typical lesson in the early years did not include scales or arpeggios. Even now, they don't really start to become a part of the lesson until about six months before an exam.

Ear Training - only started after year 4 (for exams) and just tested now and again to see if progress is being made, minimal instruction done/required.

Sight Reading - as above

Theory - before exams it was a case of just picking up theory as needed. It got a bit more serious once I was on the exam path, but for most exams there is not a huge qty of theory required. The difficulty is, a syllabus may require a separate theory exam to receive a certification for a practical exam. Learning theory can become quite interesting and I will at times spend a full lesson just on theory.

Technique Exercises - other than scales and arpeggios I don't do any Hanon, Schmitt, etc, etc, nor has it ever been suggested. I have always found making up my own exercises works better.


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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976830 05/09/20 01:52 AM
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You need to have a conversation with your teacher about these issues.
At least you'll know if you have the right one after that.
Unfortunatelly (and no offence to teachers), there are a lot of them out there who think of their adult students as billable units (like lawyers). They provide the required information and extra stuff only if the students asks for it.
I don't wanna say adults students are stigmatized but you're not the only one who's under the impression that the teacher just "wings" it on a weekly basis.

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
You need a well-balanced program that covers all the basics of piano. Don't let one or two aspects of piano lag behind the development of other skills.

Finding one who does all that without the adult student having to ask for it is like hitting the jackpot.


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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976832 05/09/20 02:37 AM
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I had a simualr experience where I had a teacher and felt that i was not getting anywhere with my learning as it was too advanced for me. This resulted in a lot of frustrations and the feeling that I was not progressing . I eventually settled on going back to self learning using the Faber Adult Piano Adventures books following recomendations for this on this forum. I have found this has been ideal for me and exactly what i needed. I thought with book one I would wiz through as I understood a lot of the theory but when it came to it I have not, as there is so much to learn in each Unit. With each unit learnt I finally feel Im progressing .

Faber differs from Alfreds in that it teaches you from day one about moving up and down the keybard, improvisation and transformation as well as techniques for understanding rythmn and how your hands should be on the keybaord . These all help build a better understanding of the keyboard by using more than just repertiore. What I also like about it is that you have two videos for each unit, so you can see how a technique works or hear how a rythmn is sounding . it also has an app which can help with your practicing . With you issues over rythmn, you may find this helps as it builds rythmn slowly from simple rythmns to the complex . I would certainly recommend that you have a look at this . There is a form thread called Faber graduates ( even though we are not graduates but leaning) for those of us who want to support each other . Good luck with your learning whichever method you use I hope you find the satisfaction in progressing with your learning rather than frustrations


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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976836 05/09/20 03:06 AM
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If you are poor at rhythm then also try listening to recordings of the pieces / exercises before learning them to learn the melody and rhythm so you know how it is meant to sound. This also makes learning them and playing correctly a lot easier.


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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Ay9293 #2976841 05/09/20 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ay9293
Thanks for the replies. Yes I have asked him regarding the scales and Hanon. He asks me back whether I want to do some. You may be correct in saying that he may feel that adults would fint them monotonous. I have expressed to him that I do not find them dull and can do them if they are beneficial.
There is a sort of teachers and pianists who believe that everything can be learned from pieces and there is no need at all in scales and exercises.

I think there will be no harm in trying to play exercises for some time. Sometimes it may be an eye-opening experience.

Originally Posted by Ay9293
4) Why may my teacher not like it when I select a repertoire piece, I neither select a piece that it too overtly hard nor too easy with nothing to gain. (I review several arrangements and test them out before presenting the piece to him)
A good teacher has a plan of development of different skills for student. Say, piece A for skill X, then etude B for skill Y. You may break his plan with your suggestions.

Originally Posted by Ay9293
No aural training either (if there is such a thing with piano teachers- if there is please enlighten me how may that occur)
AFAIK private lessons almost never include aural training. It's something you need to do by yourself.

Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
WeakLeftHand #2976853 05/09/20 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Haha I posted in your other thread over in the piano forum.
You may consider copying it here. wink

Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Iaroslav Vasiliev #2976857 05/09/20 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
Haha I posted in your other thread over in the piano forum.
You may consider copying it here. wink

Here we go. What I wrote in the other forum.

Hi there, Ay9293! Welcome!

I started about 13 months ago. I first started with Piano Marvel and got addicted to that. Then I bought the Faber Adult-All-in One Book 1 and started learning by myself. Shortly thereafter, I found a teacher and finished the Faber Book 1, RCM Preparatory A and B, and now working on RCM grade 1. I do sit for the exams.

1) I use the RCM books: 1 repertoire book, 1 etudes book, 1 technical requirements book, and 1 sight-reading and ear training book. I will also be starting the theory book soon. So, 5 books in total, all from the RCM curriculum. No more method books for me after the Faber.

2) The etudes book and technical requirements book are where I learn my scales and technique. There’s not a lot of focus on it. I learn them myself and play them for my teacher and she will make suggestions for change. Grade 1 isn’t all that complicated in regards to scales.

3) I cannot give you an exact time for what we focus on in my lessons. It’s different every lesson. However, I usually play a piece that I’ve learned by myself, and then my teacher will offer advice as to how to make it better. This is how we usually do it. She doesn’t really “teach” me pieces per se. She generally just lets me try to figure out things on my own first. If I have questions with fingering, I will ask her about proper fingering before I embark on learning the piece. We will sometimes talk about the piece, when it was composed, what kind of music it is, “how” to play it, etc. When I say “how” to play it I really mean how to interpret it musically. I am a self starter in learning and quite independent, so I think she has sensed this and she gives me the freedom I desire. I’m pretty much the person in charge of my learning path. She’s really just there to guide me technically and musically, etc. I always choose the pieces I want to learn by myself, from the books I use. I will also sometimes choose pieces from non-RCM books and learn them. My teacher will guide me with those as well.

4) I don’t know about this. I don’t want to guess.

5) I’ve just finished my first year, so I don’t know about 2nd or 3rd year, but I’ll be continuing with the RCM curriculum so I don’t think much will change for me in the next couple of years.

Last edited by WeakLeftHand; 05/09/20 04:47 AM.

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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Iaroslav Vasiliev #2976859 05/09/20 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
AFAIK private lessons almost never include aural training. It's something you need to do by yourself.

I do have aural training and sight-reading training during lessons, but I’ll be the first to admit they’re not regular like 5-10 minutes every lesson. It usually occurs with increasing frequency and duration the few months to few weeks before an exam. It can’t really be crammed so maybe I should suggest doing it regularly at every lesson for maybe 5-10 minutes.

The reason we don’t do it more is because I don’t enjoy them and my teacher knows it.

Doing it at lessons is not enough of course. It should also be practiced outside of lessons but I find it so dry I rarely want to do it.


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Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
dmd #2976870 05/09/20 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Ay9293
Lessons have until very recently was very difficult for both my teacher and for myself. It was difficult for him to instil some rhythm and beat into me. It was difficult for me to absorb something that is not intuitive.

This, in my estimation, is the most significant thing you need to address.

I would suggest that you need to be working on the simplest of music that you can absolutely play perfectly and concentrate on the rhythm and beat.

And ... keep ... working on simple things that are easy for you to play and concentrate on developing that rhythm and beat concept.

You need to be able to master it.

If you do not play "on time" .... you can throw the rest away.

No-one enjoys listening to a piece of music played out of time.

So, that would be what I would ask your teacher to work with you on .... no matter how painful.

Good Luck

You are definitely correct there. He did go back with simpler pieces and we concentrate on pulse, rhythm then the rest. Thankfully it is finally getting through to me. I'm tackling this problem with a variery of methods eurhythmics, rhythm apps, soundbrenner (pulsating metronome) etc.

Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
scirocco #2976871 05/09/20 06:05 AM
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[quote=scirocco]Are you working to a syllabus of some sort, or do you just make it up week by week? Did you agree on a long term plan when you started?

Regardless of anything to do with exams, you might feel more comfortable if you have a pre-agreed, fixed structure of technical work, method book and repertoire pieces, from one of the training schools. That might give you a bit more feeling that you’re in charge of the process, and to know what you ought to be doing.

I noticed he selects pieces according to the grade eg abrsm grade 3. He usually selects 3 pieces and I choose one of them for the week. I tend to pick the one that is the most different from what I have previously played or if I think there are elements in it that I would find difficult.

Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Bhav #2976873 05/09/20 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
You can ask your teacher to work with you on rhythm, technique, and theory for a year. Throw away all the repertoire for now--they are probably too hard for you, anyway. That's some unusual repertoire you have going on there. Did you pick those pieces?.

He selected the pieces to be honest I actually quite like them.
Originally Posted by Bhav
If you are poor at rhythm then also try listening to recordings of the pieces / exercises before learning them to learn the melody and rhythm so you know how it is meant to sound. This also makes learning them and playing correctly a lot easier.

He did not wish for me to do that initially as it is cheating, he wants me to gather the information from the score.

Last edited by Ay9293; 05/09/20 06:12 AM.
Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
earlofmar #2976876 05/09/20 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by earlofmar
Scales and Arpeggios - a typical lesson in the early years did not include scales or arpeggios. Even now, they don't really start to become a part of the lesson until about six months before an exam.

Ear Training - only started after year 4 (for exams) and just tested now and again to see if progress is being made, minimal instruction done/required.

Sight Reading - as above

Theory - before exams it was a case of just picking up theory as needed. It got a bit more serious once I was on the exam path, but for most exams there is not a huge qty of theory required. The difficulty is, a syllabus may require a separate theory exam to receive a certification for a practical exam. Learning theory can become quite interesting and I will at times spend a full lesson just on theory.

Technique Exercises - other than scales and arpeggios I don't do any Hanon, Schmitt, etc, etc, nor has it ever been suggested. I have always found making up my own exercises works better.

Thanks for answering this was what I was initially curious about.

Re: What are piano lessons for an adult (beginner/ intermd) like
Bhav #2976877 05/09/20 06:34 AM
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Hi
Originally Posted by Bhav
If you are poor at rhythm then also try listening to recordings of the pieces / exercises before learning them to learn the melody and rhythm so you know how it is meant to sound. This also makes learning them and playing correctly a lot easier.

listening to how it sounds on a recording to understand the rhythm slows down developing the skill of working out the rhythm in your own. Having problems? Drag out s pencil and the metronome. Write in the beats if you need it; draw a vertical line connecting the treble and bass notes that are played together. Clap it. Count it out loud.

You want to develop analytic rhythm skills so you can learn music without hearing first how it should be played.


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