2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
88 members (accordeur, AndyOnThePiano, Beemer, Anjru, ambrozy, AndrewJCW, aphexdisklavier, 19 invisible), 991 guests, and 524 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
#2973299 04/30/20 11:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
O
owen89 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Hi everyone! Nice to meet you all

I've been planning to purchase a piano for my better half (and, I'll be honest, also for me grin ) for a few months, and came across this fantastic forum while researching. I've already spent far too many hours reading old threads to get up to speed. I'd be hugely grateful for some insights on all manner of topics about playing piano and will enjoy exploring these during the journey, but I'll begin with the necessary starting point... buying a piano.

My girlfriend and I have quite different starting points in terms of experience, but are looking for a cabinet/furniture style piano that (1) plays well, (2) sounds nice, (3) fits into our lifestyle (we live in a flat in London and I have to work some pretty unusual hours, and therefore we need something that works with headphones rather than an acoustic, and will look good as we'll have to spend a lot of time looking at it!)

  • My girlfriend played piano when she was younger, for about 10 years, but we haven't had a piano for a long time (we moved home last year, and this is the first time we've been living somewhere with enough space to accommodate a piano). Although she is now a few years out of any regular practice, I've heard her play and it's really beautiful to listen to, so I'm mainly purchasing so she can pick up her hobby again. She learned on a fairly primitive digital piano so isn't too fixed on the specific action or sound being like what she had before, as some time has passed, and it will be a step up in any case. I'm mostly worried about getting something that won't turn out to be a limit to her playing as she gets back into it!
  • I play guitar, but am new to learning piano - although something I've always wanted to be able to spend time doing. I've played the odd key here or there when playing along to the radio/tv (when the guitar simply wouldn't do), but will for practical purposes be starting from the basics. Ideally, I'd like to get something which has bluetooth midi for apps, and which allows me to stream music/audio through so I can play along on headphones listening to myself and a backing track or lesson at the same time.


Of course, neither of us is ever going to be a professional concert pianist, we're just looking for something we can play at home by ourselves or with friends, to enjoy playing music of all sorts of genres and that isn't going to feel like a restrictive beginners instrument - something that will have a long lifespan and meet our needs as we get better, rather than need replacing (much prefer a less wasteful, buy once and buy well, option)

The "ideal" (although I appreciate rather optimistic) wish list would be:
  • an action we won't regret buying in a few years
  • realistic piano sounds through headphones and on board speakers, which can hold their own when played solo
  • a few piano sound options
  • line in or bluetooth audio in
  • bluetooth or USB midi to tablet/ipad
  • looks good at home (we're dreaming of a polished ebony finish, but there are lots of nice looking pianos out there)


Beyond that, other features we aren't so concerned about, or are things we're less likely to use: lots of Midi sounds, powerful speaker systems, touch screens, effects. A decent Hammond organ and Church organ sound would be fun, but neither is essential.

It's a tough time to buy, as we can't get out to any stores to actually play any instruments, and it looks like that could be the way of things things are for many months to come. I did consider getting a cheap stop-gap solution (a budget slab), but considering we'd still need all the associated kit to go with it, I'd sooner just put the money I would spend on that into getting a better product that is more likely to hit all the requirements.

To give an idea of price, we're looking in the GBP1000-2000 range (ideally lower part of that, but we can go towards the upper end of it if needed), and from the research so far we're looking at a shortlist of:
Kawai CN-29, CN-39, CA-48, CA-58
Yamaha CLP-635, 645, 675 (the last one would be a real stretch)

Perhaps also Roland models? I've read they have a nice action, but have heard fewer reports or recordings of the piano sounds - they seem more geared towards musicians needing a wider variety of sounds than primary piano.

Would there be anything the wisdom of forum members would steer us towards (or away from!)? Are any of these particularly recommended as a 'safe bet', or noticeably strong models that would more than meet our requirements and would be expected to last for a long time?

Many thanks in advance (I also promise that future my questions and topics will be more concise!)


Guitar player, new(ish) to piano
Currently with a piano shaped hole in my life, and looking to resolve that!
(ad)
Sweetwater Gifts That Rock
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973303 04/30/20 11:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 52
B
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 52
There are hundreds of Youtubes comparing a lot of the models you mentioned above..No one can tell you what you make like as to feel or sound...I was in the same boat as you. Try as many as you can, or if something comes close as to what you think you may want, buy it, only if they have a good return policy...

Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973307 04/30/20 11:47 AM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
O
owen89 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Hi Barry
Thanks for the super quick response! Sadly with the lockdown we aren't going to be able to try anything for the foreseeable future - we're in the UK and think it's going to be a few more months before retail stores can open up again


Guitar player, new(ish) to piano
Currently with a piano shaped hole in my life, and looking to resolve that!
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973308 04/30/20 11:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 24
1
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
1
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 24
I ended up purchasing a yamaha clp-645 during the lockdown. I was able to make appointments at a Kawai, Casio and Yamaha dealer to try them out. They all went out of their way to accommodate me. I spent considerable time doing my own research and trying each extensively. I tried the clp-645, kawai ca58 and the casio ap-710. All really nice! But ultimately chose the Yamaha. I suggest you give your local dealers or email them to see if they would set you an appointment.
Good luck with your search!

Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973318 04/30/20 12:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,628
W
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,628
I would really suggest trying pianos (including acoustics) in a showroom, together with your GF, before you buy anything, to avoid disappointment. Especially because your GF already has 10 years experience. I understand the problem with closed dealers but better wait a few months than being turned off and loose your money on a bad piano.


[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973319 04/30/20 12:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 137
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 137
I wouldn't write off the idea of trying for yourselves. For sure general music stores with significant footfall are going to be problematic for a while but the specialist piano stores might be ok. For example I was in Bonners is Milton Keynes shortly after they opened and before the world caved in. Huge selection in a large industrial unit converted into a smart showroom. Aside from myself there were two staff members at desks in corners for the duration of my visit.

I would have thought an outfit like that could operate more safely than a trip to the supermarket so hopefully it won't be too long before they are able to.

Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973327 04/30/20 12:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,523
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,523
You can talk about this until ... the cows come home.

However, you have to really play them personally in order to make a decision.

You one very big advantage over many who come to this site for help with purchasing .... your girl friend has an extensive background with playing piano.

She has to be the one to decide ... not you.

So .... you and her will have to go someplace where she can play some ... and then decide.

There is no other way.

Well, there is one other way ....

You could just take my advice and purchase the Kawai CN39 and hope I am giving good advice.

Good Luck

Last edited by dmd; 04/30/20 12:40 PM.

Don

Casio PX-S1000, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq, Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973333 04/30/20 01:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 982
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 982
Originally Posted by owen89
Kawai CN-29, CN-39, CA-48, CA-58
Yamaha CLP-635, 645, 675 (the last one would be a real stretch)

Kawai CA58
Yamaha CLP-645

I'd choose between these two. They are both great. And this is how I'd go:
1- Action is important: according to this forum, Kawai's (CA) action is well balanced (lighter) and Yamaha (CLP) is a bit heavier. The difference is not significant though and Kawai's action is not light compared to acoustic pianos. In fact, many acoustic pianos have lighter actions. Seems Kawai's action is more popular(search this forum).

I found practicing on well-balanced action like Kawai makes me have a better expression in my fingers in general. So when I play different DPs, I actually have better control on how hard or soft I play. Playing on a heavy action on the other hand, will reduce your expressiveness.

Yamaha's CLP action is not on the heavy side and Kawai's CA action is not on the light side. Yamaha is just a bit heavier or Kawai is just a bit lighter... I don't think any of that would matter. Any musician will play well on any of them, and it will be a joy.

2- Sound is subjective. Luckily, you can listen to audio's available on soundcloud.com. Search for the piano model you're looking for and listen carefully. Buy one of them and forget about the existance of the other one. I assure you that you wont regert laugh

Last edited by Abdol; 04/30/20 01:05 PM.

Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973336 04/30/20 01:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,921
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,921
If you can't try pianos for a few months, then just wait.
Originally Posted by owen89
... with the lockdown we aren't going to be able to try anything for the foreseeable future - we're in the UK and think it's going to be a few more months before retail stores can open up again
I think it would be a mistake to buy a piano that you haven't tried.

If you simply MUST have a piano right away, would it make sense to buy a cheap one, sight unseen and hands untouched, just for the duration?
No chance to try it out ... but little risk since it'll be (a) cheap and (b) short-lived.

And then sell it when it comes time for a "real" piano.

Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
dmd #2973340 04/30/20 01:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
O
owen89 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Thanks all for the replies! those are definitely useful ideas and suggestions, cheers!

Of course (as I would feel about buying any instrument), we're very keen to get to a dealer to try them out if we can - if it looks like it will only be few weeks then certainly we'll just hold on, but if the steps announced next week indicate that it will be a few months until retail businesses can reopen then the ultimately we might just have to make a best guess - and in that event perhaps playing a bit of music will help distract us from being inside for half the summer grin I hope you're right though dhts! It would seem to make more sense allowing small specialists to open than some of the bigger general retail stores.

We're just aware that, the way things are, we would feel pretty rotten claiming that the two of us going out to buy a piano is "essential" at any point before we're certain that it isn't going to be risking spreading the virus around as we travel, and putting more strain on the NHS. My sister works in a hospital and has been in the covid wards for several weeks (what a hero! and here's me thinking about pianos...), so we wouldn't be doing our bit by putting our piano distractions above the health and well-being of others at this time

The piano is actually a replacement Christmas and Birthday present for my GF - we were originally going to be on a long-planned holiday at the start of April, but of course those plans have been shelved! (ruddy virus!). Ah well, the piano will hopefully last longer, and we're slowly able to gather ideas and move towards a better informed decision.

Originally Posted by dmd
You can talk about this until ... the cows come home.

Haha, too right - we could sink hours and hours into such questions, and not always be any closer at the end of the day. You're definitely right that it's helpful that at least one of us has a longer background playing in knowing what to look out for. That said, we're still finding the number of options out there can be a bit overwhelming. So even knocking it down to a few best bets is handy to try and manage the dilemma


@1957 and@dmd - Would you mind if we ask what stood out about the CLP-645 and CN-39 respectively? Particularly on what you feel about the step up between GH3X -> NWX keys on the CLP and RH3 -> GFC on the Kawai?


Guitar player, new(ish) to piano
Currently with a piano shaped hole in my life, and looking to resolve that!
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973343 04/30/20 01:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,331
C
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,331
There's no law against buying a digital piano without trying it.

One option is to just buy one of the recommended models and then stop worrying about it.

People will have varying opinions of all those models.

And the grass may always seem greener in the other music store whatever you buy in the end.

Maybe the Kawai would have been better?

Maybe the Yamaha would have been better?

Why didn't we even try out any of the Rolands?

Oh no! Now there's already a follow up model replacing the one we just bought a month ago. What do we do now that our precious digital piano is suddenly obsolete?

You get the idea... 😁

Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973344 04/30/20 01:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
O
owen89 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Thanks also Abdol and Macmacmac (your replies came though while I was writing the above)

Re: Soundcloud - I hadn't thought of that, great shout! And the comments on deciphering descriptions of the actions are much appreciated

macmacmac - certainly an option we're looking into, although would probably begin with cheap and secondhand, and there's not so much for sale at the moment in a price range that wouldn't put a significant dent in the budget for the main purchase. We'll keep checking ebay and gumtree for possibilities though


I can't help but include a mention for your guitar Abdol - the Pacifica 112 - I have been playing a 112j for almost 20 years, and it's still feels like I'm playing with magic every time I pick it up! Here's hoping it's the same (playing, not picking up) the piano


Guitar player, new(ish) to piano
Currently with a piano shaped hole in my life, and looking to resolve that!
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973349 04/30/20 01:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 80
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 80
It's super tough to give advice in such a situation, exactly for reasons others already mentioned above. Ideally, of course, you have to try before buying, especially with pianos, and especially of one of the future players have quite an experience, albeit with a break in practice.

But, when I was choosing a digital piano in more or less the same price range, I've tried all these models you mentioned in stores (except Yamaha CLP-675, couldn't find it on-floor anywhere), and ultimately chose CLP-645. I have to clarify though that I chose it mainly because of the sound, I just liked it very much. But the sound is a very subjective matter; actually, after one more year of playing and practicing piano, I now think that Kawai digital pianos sound represents an acoustic piano sound better than my CLP-645, though I still find that Yamaha sounds much more exciting for me laugh So I don't have any regrets. Plus, the action on Kawai CA line pianos imitates grand piano better than CLP-645's action, in my opinion.

From my side I can totally recommend CLP-645, it's a very good instrument and I have zero complaints/problems with it after more than a year of playing. But, other models on your list don't have any fatal flaws for which they could be excluded, they are good for their respective price points and not one of them could be said to be significantly better than the other, all differences between them are very subjective (again, if we are talking about models for a comparable price, like CN39/CLP-635 or CA-58/CLP-645).

All in all, I think you should choose between higher-priced models, i.e. CLP-675/645/CA-58 because if you are buying an instrument for years to come, you have to get the best you can comfortably afford, it's the general advice with digital pianos. They aren't going to be outdated like a smartphone in a few years, so buying a digital piano is more like an investment than just a regular consumer electronics purchase, keep that in mind. A good digital piano will still be a good digital piano after 6/8/10 years, assuming it won't have any technical problems.

P. S. Pardon me for maybe a bit confusing writing, it's late evening here laugh


Casio PX-160 (Previous), Yamaha CLP-645 (Current), Superlux HD-681
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
clothearednincompo #2973351 04/30/20 01:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
O
owen89 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Oh no! Now there's already a follow up model replacing the one we just bought a month ago. What do we do now that our precious digital piano is suddenly obsolete?

From what this forum thinks of the future release schedules, that's pretty much baked in, hahaha grin
Very wise sentiment though - there's always going to be the question of whether another option would have been better, and worrying about too much won't help anybody. Once we pick, I'm sure we'll just enjoy playing it!

Think we'll give it a week or so to see how things are looking, and whether there's any more of a timeline for moving away from the lockdown


Moving on (and now mostly for me) - does anyone have particular recommendations for the different tuition apps and courses out there? There are some fantastic teachers who have created content for guitarists (Justin Sandercoe from Justinguitar.com, for instance), so I wondered if anyone had particularly enjoyed learning songs or theory with any of the piano courses?


Guitar player, new(ish) to piano
Currently with a piano shaped hole in my life, and looking to resolve that!
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973358 04/30/20 01:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
O
owen89 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
O
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Thanks Darkwasp - that's also really helpful, particularly your rationale at the time and reflections on it after a year.

All perfectly clear, and makes a lot of sense to us :-) thanks for responding so late in your day


Guitar player, new(ish) to piano
Currently with a piano shaped hole in my life, and looking to resolve that!
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973371 04/30/20 02:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,523
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,523
Originally Posted by owen89
....@dmd - Would you mind if we ask what stood out about the ... CN-39 ...

I do not get into all the details of it all.

For anything I might say .... someone will come up with a .... mine is better .... retort.

That becomes fruitless.

I just know the Kawai Brand ... I have owned 5 of them.

I have owned other brands, also but always migrate back to the Kawai for what I perceive is great action and sound.

I have never owned a Kawai CN but have read positive comments here and there about it and the CN39 stood out as a solid choice.

So ... that is the one I would put my reputation as a dependable source of information.

Will it be the absolute best option for you ?

Who knows .... and you will never know until you have tried them all.

Do you have to get the best possible one ?

I would think .... NO.

You just need one (there are many) that your girl friend will be happy with.

I believe the KAWAI CN39 is one of those.

Good Luck


Don

Casio PX-S1000, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq, Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973375 04/30/20 02:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,523
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,523
Originally Posted by owen89
Moving on (and now mostly for me) - does anyone have particular recommendations for the different tuition apps and courses out there?

Of course, a method book and a teacher at your side once a week is your best option.

Next, if she (and you) is willing .... a method book and your girlfriend at your side once a week.

Next, a method book and an online teacher at your side once a week.

Next, a method book with consultation option with your girl friend as needed.

If none of those are possible .... good luck to you.


Don

Casio PX-S1000, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq, Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973378 04/30/20 02:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,481
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,481
Williams Allegro!

Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973385 04/30/20 02:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 80
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 80
Originally Posted by owen89
Moving on (and now mostly for me) - does anyone have particular recommendations for the different tuition apps and courses out there? There are some fantastic teachers who have created content for guitarists (Justin Sandercoe from Justinguitar.com, for instance), so I wondered if anyone had particularly enjoyed learning songs or theory with any of the piano courses?
I can recommend PianoMarvel - pianomarvel.com, that's what I'm using currently and I'm very satisfied with it, especially in this situation when I can't meet my teacher (and she is opposed to online lessons because she considers them ineffective. Old school!).
Speaking of teachers, get one! Their help is priceless, though in the very beginning something like PianoMarvel and your girlfriend's help may be enough (but don't quote me on that smile


Casio PX-160 (Previous), Yamaha CLP-645 (Current), Superlux HD-681
Re: Buying a digital piano during the lockdown
owen89 #2973411 04/30/20 04:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,465
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,465
Hugh Sung's course at ArtistWorks.com would be a good compliment to Piano Marvel to get some feedback on your musicality, technique and posture which you won't get from Piano Marvel alone. I'm actually using them both and would be happy to answer any questions.


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545, R. Schumann Fantasy Dance, Joplin The Chrysanthemum
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO, Piano de Voyage
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Wilh. Steinberg grand piano
by Guido, Roma - Italy - 01/16/21 04:47 PM
Searching for my first piano
by AndresVel - 01/16/21 03:34 PM
Tuning pin video
by accordeur - 01/16/21 03:22 PM
Concert pianist opintions regarding DP actions
by Marc345 - 01/16/21 02:50 PM
Size, placement, brand
by Anjru - 01/16/21 02:31 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,299
Posts3,047,439
Members100,079
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4