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Joined: Apr 2007
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This is an Internet forum where people express their personal opinion. Everyone is equal in that he can share his opinion and be right or wrong, or as eccentric or mainstream as he wishes. I’m not given any authority by a higher power or even appropriated or assumed an authoritative identity to be treated differently by other members as an executive person issuing decrees that they obey.

Let’s not go into some twisted semantic and language analysis on how my words sound because you and others very well know and understand that everyone here expresses personal opinions. And you’re free to find them eccentric of course smile But to me it’s an exaggeration or a misunderstanding of the freedom of thought and ideas.

Last edited by CyberGene; 04/25/20 01:57 PM.

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Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
The criticisms of it are really weird, considering it is just $600 - I wonder what people expect from such a keyboard.

I suppose people expect the same they expect from all other $600 pianos: black and white keys with the same downweight.
People who buy $600 keyboards do not usually measure the downweight of the keys. And there's no perceptible difference between the black and the white keys. Just the stiffness near the fallboard for all the keys.

Well there's no perceptible difference for you. Clearly there is, otherwise James Pavel wouldn't have noticed and all this issue wouldn't even come up.
You are inferring something from a sample size of 1. One YouTuber perceives the difference of weight between the black and white keys and finds this annoys him. Another YouTuber might say that Nordost interconnects sound better than Amazon basics ones (it doesn't mean most people will notice this).

Ideally you would do some double blind testing, to see if a significant proportion of people would notice this without prepping.

This weight difference is not something I notice, so I can offer you the datapoint of another sample of one. And you can search how many other pianists noticed a difference in the weight of the black keys and weight keys.

If it's not noticeable for most people, then the criticism should be qualified with the disclaimer - that only few people will notice this. (Unlike, in this particular product, the stiffness of keys near the fallboard, which is commonly noted by people).
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
People who buy $600 DP also don't usually check if there's hammers inside, so let's put springs on them!

If I buy a cheap entry-level priced oven, I won't measure if the 200°C setting is exactly 200°C, instead of 199.3 °C, and wouldn't notice a difference. Probably many of the products I own are like this.

Perhaps, if you spend thousands of dollars on a oven, you might measure it carefully, expecting precision engineering, even in criteria which would be imperceptible for the purposes you bought the product for. On the other hand, for a budget produc - I imagine that most people expect it to be fit for their purpose.

You wrote above something about scales. Well that's what I'm using the PX-S1000 for every day - I am using it to practice scales and exercise. It's very fit for this purpose (practicing scales, etc) in my case, and exceeded all my expectations for value for money, for this kind of product.

Last edited by 3am_stargazing; 04/25/20 02:16 PM.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
This is an Internet forum where people express their personal opinion. Everyone is equal in that he can share his opinion and be right or wrong, or as eccentric or mainstream as he wishes. I’m not given any authority by a higher power or even appropriated or assumed an authoritative identity to be treated differently by other members as an executive person issuing decrees that they obey.

Let’s not go into some twisted semantic and language analysis on how my words sound because you and others very well know and understand that everyone here expresses personal opinions. And you’re free to find them eccentric of course smile But to me it’s an exaggeration or a misunderstanding of the freedom of thought and ideas.
Of course, it's a nice thing and part of the free exchange of ideas that people are expressing their opinions. And also no less, that other people are expressing their opinions about those opinions.

Last edited by 3am_stargazing; 04/25/20 02:19 PM.

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Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
Originally Posted by RodrigoPon
People who buy $600 DP also don't usually check if there's hammers inside, so let's put springs on them!

If I buy a cheap entry-level priced oven, I won't measure if the 200°C setting is exactly 200°C, instead of 199.3 °C, and wouldn't notice a difference. Probably many of the products I own are like this.

Perhaps, if you spend thousands of dollars on a oven, you might measure it carefully, expecting precision engineering, even in criteria which would be imperceptible for the purposes you bought the product for. On the other hand, for a budget produc - I imagine that most people expect it to be fit for their purpose.

You wrote above something about scales. Well that's what I'm using the PX-S1000 for every day - I am using it to practice scales and exercise. It's very fit for this purpose (practicing scales, etc) in my case, and exceeded all my expectations for value for money, for this kind of product.

Just to add to my comment about value for money, in case it will be useful for other budget people who might read this, be misled by some folks who buy more expensive products, and seem to need to justify their higher expenditures. Subjectively, value for money will vary depending on the person's requirements - but within those requirements it should be a linear monotonic relationship.

A Yamaha P-515 costs 250% more than a Casio PX-S1000. So which is better value for money? When I was trying the P-515 in the shop it certainly felt somewhat more realistic (and would have less stiffness near the fallboard, for people who have that as a pet peeve - for others' reading, I am not fussy about stiff keys near fallboards, which may or may not be unusual). For my dorm-room purposes, there is no way it could be anywhere near 250% more valuable. I.e. PX-S1000 is excellent value for money relative to more expensive categories of product. I imagine this is the situation for many other consumers, although you would need a poll of consumers to know what proportion enjoy the action, don't mind stiffness near the fallboard, etc.

As for precise weights of black and white keys - this issue I find difficult even to understand how someone could notice it (as I was trying to do just now), but perhaps some people have differently wired brains and they can perceive such weight differences between black and white keys. Mentioning this as the main flaw of the product in a review, might be misleading for most consumers, unless you have tried to do some kind of poll or test to see that any other people will actually notice it.

Last edited by 3am_stargazing; 04/26/20 12:28 PM.

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I compared the audio signals straight from my digital piano to the computer's (yes, computer's, not an audio interface's) line input panned to left and Pianoteq with my current settings.

Looks like (in Audacity) that the Pianoteq audio comes about 45 milliseconds later in the recording. I don't know what Kawai did with the ES100 i.e. is there any built-in "hammer delay" to simulate a real piano or is everything as instant as possible with the electronics.

I can play both sounds on top of each other and have a sort of chorus effect, but otherwise it's not distracting. And I don't experience any issue when playing just Pianoteq even though it's (or rather the whole MIDI + audio chain is) ~45 ms slower than the built-in sound of the Kawai.

Somebody else might be absolutely devastated!

...for me not using an audio interface.

And maybe for the latency too. 😁

Similarly as I've said before the PX-S models might be just fine for most of the world's population.

Just take this key weight discussion as "academic" or something and let it go...

Last edited by clothearednincompo; 04/26/20 12:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
...A Yamaha P-515 costs 250% more than a Casio PX-S1000. So which is better value for money?

I think the ES110 and the FP30 are better value than the PX-S. At Yamaha you should compare the P125, but I don't like its keys either.

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Are the black keys Addressable so that such a velocity curve could be imposed?
I suggested this to the Canadian Casio distributer.
Heard nothing back from Casio but I’m afraid to play it much as it overstressed my hands when I first got it.
It’s taken months and I’m still ‘ham-handed’ after being in good form for coffee houses.


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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
And yes he has changed his mind and said that it was difficult to really assess the piano in the noisy NAMM.
Yeah, or it could be he didn't want to lose his YT cred by doing something gauche like saying something nice about a Casio. I don't see how noise can affect your judgement of key weight.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
But, but, but... top-notch classical pianists play big time concertos and virtuoso repertoire on these new Casios!!! If you can’t play well, then the problem is in you!
Well they're not really doing so on $10k+ "legit hybrids" either.

I know what "cred" means, but what is "YT cred"?

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Originally Posted by Almaviva
Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
And yes he has changed his mind and said that it was difficult to really assess the piano in the noisy NAMM.
Yeah, or it could be he didn't want to lose his YT cred by doing something gauche like saying something nice about a Casio. I don't see how noise can affect your judgement of key weight.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
But, but, but... top-notch classical pianists play big time concertos and virtuoso repertoire on these new Casios!!! If you can’t play well, then the problem is in you!
Well they're not really doing so on $10k+ "legit hybrids" either.

I know what "cred" means, but what is "YT cred"?
YouTube Credit?


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On some YouTube videos I’ve watch(and I have played the 3000), the quieter volume of the black keys is very noticeable and brought back my experience playing the board.

Knowing the down weight does reflect on a back story component.

I did not get the board, which I was looking forward to. It was a $900.00 board.

I bought the Dexibell P3.

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I returned the Casio PSX3000 and bought the Kawai ESS-110. Night and day.


Selmer Mark VI Tenor (‘73) & Alto Sax (‘57), Yamaha YSS-62 Soprano Sax (‘87), Conn Naked Lady Baritone Sax (‘52), Conn New Wonder Tenor & Alto Sax (‘24), Yamaha WX5 Wind Synth (‘13), Kawai MP11 & ES-110, Numa Compact 2x, Casio PX5S, Roland VR-09, Hammond E-112 (‘69).
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