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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2956678 03/12/20 02:02 PM
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My own view here is that Casio has clearly made a conscious decision based on prioritization of features they consider as important. Namely, for Casio, it was very important that these DPs are as small/compact as possible, light as possible, operate on batteries, etc., while still offering a graded hammer action. In short, they're more focused on gigging musicians rather than beginning home piano learners (they have console format DPs for this). Kawai has made a similar move with the ES-110 (decreasing weight with a compact action, including DIN-5 MIDI ports, etc.) so it seems the "semi-pro gigging" market is worth it for some manufacturers to pursue.

Of course, with this comes trade-offs. It was endlessly debated when the PX-S1000/S3000 were first announced whether Casio's new compact action would be hard to play at the fallboard, given its short pivot. That was a conscious decision that allowed Casio to make these DPs lighter and more shallower; they either figured most people wouldn't mind, or accepted that it was more worth their effort to increase their target market size at the expense of those who would forego these models because of it. I don't know if the "lighter black keys" was a clear design decision, but my guess is it was, it seems unlikely to be something that was overlooked. Perhaps they felt lighter black keys would make it easy to reach between them to play white keys near the fallboard, which is where the action compromise is most noticeable.


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2956687 03/12/20 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo


He didn't "jump into conclusions". First he played the piano and then he measured the key weights. What more can be expected?



I dont know, saying the action is flawed because of different weight is jumping to conclusions to me(i mean its in the title of the video), more if he doesnt have a reasoning on why it is like that. As you said, he could just show his discovery and speculate why and if he thinks that makes the action flawed, the video title is kind of controversial.

But well, i watched some of the original video (before this post) but i didnt read the comments to see if people mentioned this "flaw" to him so he makes this video.


My piano history in about 15 months: Artesia PA88w -> Yamaha P45 -> Kawai CN 24 -> Kawai CN 37 -> Kawai CA 78
Done with: Clair de Lune - Debussy, Waltz Op. 64 no. 2 - Chopin. Looking for a new piece, kind of learning The Mandalorian theme, and practicing with Etude Op.10 no.1 - Chopin.
Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
GNkyrios #2956694 03/12/20 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GNkyrios
I dont know, saying the action is flawed because of different weight is jumping to conclusions to me


For him an action is flawed, if the white and black keys have a different weight.

In that Casio they have a different weight.

So, for him the action is flawed.

Why do we even spend so much time on "shooting the messenger" i.e. James the YouTube guy? He's just talking about an objective measurable fact.

He also said that he has removed some argumentative comments from the original review video, so they are not all there anymore.

I think we can "keep calm and carry on". Casio will keep selling PX-S pianos and (some) people will keep being happy with them.

And most people won't ever even hear about James the YouTube guy's video. πŸ˜„

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
clothearednincompo #2956732 03/12/20 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by magicpiano
So, why I should choose the Casio DP?


It's slim, lightweight
To me, in that price range, they are all almost the same as dimensions and weight:

ES110:
Dimensions (W x D x H): 1312 x 286 x 145 mm
Weight: 12 kg

P125:
Dimensions (W x D x H): 1326 x 295 x 166 mm
Weight: 11.8 kg

PX-S1000:
Dimensions (W x D x H): 1322 x 232 x 102 mm
Weight: 11.2 kg

The PX-S1000 is a little smaller and lighter, but not so much.

Quote
and comes (optionally) with a portable triple pedal whereas the Yamaha and Kawai only offer a triple pedal that's supposed to be attached to their "furniture stand".[...]
IMHO most people that buy a $500-600 digital piano are fine with the on/off sustain pedal you find in the original box.
Quote


[...]Or maybe you are put off by Kawai's UI where you press combinations of buttons that are only documented in the User's Manual or on a separate cheat sheet.
In that video I posted before, the reviewer says (at about 9:32) that the Casio Privia UI is one of his only complains he have about that DP, because it uses too much shortcut commands difficult to remember so you always need to have the User Manual at hand...

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2956789 03/13/20 02:29 AM
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Oh, the PX-S1000 UI is flawed too. πŸ˜„ (The 3000 has a display with a menu system.)

I was thinking of older Privias where they at least had printed the actions of each key on the "fallboard" and didn't even remember how's the PX-S1000 UI.

And I tried to come up with some positives about the Casio.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
navindra #2956862 03/13/20 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by navindra
I will say that James' is one of the more objective reviews I've seen of this family of keyboards.

For whatever reason, all the other professional reviews, video and written, all seem to be suspect in that they are nearly 100% praise and non-critical. One might suspect that Casio marketing is behind them, although this could be the reality for most reviews.


He is a reviewer who demonstrates the ability to play actual piano repertoire. Something missing from most adverts disguised as reviews. This is how he noticed the action quirks very quickly.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2957231 03/14/20 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by clothesearednincompo
For him an action is flawed, if the white and black keys have a different weight.

In that Casio they have a different weight.

So, for him the action is flawed.

Why do we even spend so much time on "shooting the messenger" i.e. James the YouTube guy? He's just talking about an objective measurable fact.

For the flawed testing. A "flaw" implies that this is worse than that. He didn't do the same test on any other keyboard, from what I can tell. An "objective measurable fact" could also be something like "the black keys on this Kawai look unusally dark" and compare it to a hardware store paint sample. It wouldn't tell me anything.
Originally Posted by magicpiano
In that video I posted before, the reviewer says (at about 9:32) that the Casio Privia UI is one of his only complains he have about that DP, because it uses too much shortcut commands difficult to remember so you always need to have the User Manual at hand...
That's true, and it can be a pain.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Chrispy #2957255 03/15/20 03:57 AM
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Some of you guys are much too hard on this kid. He is not a troll, nor is he a spoiled brat.

Even though he is only 19 years old, James Pavel Shawcross has been a serious piano student since early childhood, with lots of emphasis on the classical repertoire. He is certainly capable of giving an honest appraisal of the strengths and weaknesses of acoustic and digital pianos. I guess you could say he calls 'em as he sees 'em.

By the way, I am NOT related to this kid, nor do I have any business relationships with him. (LOL.) I've never even met him. I just enjoy his YouTube videos. I find them informative and entertaining, even if I do not always agree with his conclusions.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2957257 03/15/20 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
He is certainly capable of giving an honest appraisal of the strengths and weaknesses of acoustic and digital pianos. I guess you could say he calls 'em as he sees 'em.
Which is also the prerogative of his viewers.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2957258 03/15/20 04:38 AM
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^ Here's a problem with it, by the way. Someone left a comment on that Casio video that says,
Quote
I won’t even think about purchasing a new piano or keyboard unless it gets your stamp of approval. Good looking out.

I honestly don't know how some people can squeeze any playing time in between sessions with the tape measures, calipers and weights.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2968521 04/18/20 05:43 PM
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So here is the next video where he compares with other pianos in the price range. Interesting.

https://youtu.be/ChMHi2auG_c

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2968693 04/19/20 03:48 AM
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A new video? With a Casio in it?

Time to bring out the torches and pitchforks!

(That remains to be seen...)

One funny thing in the video was Yamaha's "progressive escapement simulation" (not his words). Looks like he just plays the pianos to assess the feel and doesn't dive into action diagrams or photos etc. or he probably would have mentioned the "unhinged" (pun intended) design of the GHS which is based on bending the plastic.

And the title is misleading until you get to the very end of it that says "under $800".

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2968794 04/19/20 12:14 PM
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Actually the interesting thing is there's not just a casio in this last video.

I think it's a good video, as some people said before it's the only one that actually measures something, and now there's comparisons too. He probably doesn't know how actions work inside, but to measure the down-weight that's not really needed.

I think he has a point on the Casio's problem he mentions.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2968804 04/19/20 12:48 PM
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I actually think the new video is pretty good, also. I think James' earlier video came off as him being a bit arrogant, perhaps because a 19 year old talking a strong stance and reaching a conclusion that some will find controversial, all while speaking to mostly adults viewing his channel, will assuredly rub some people the wrong way. It seems to me he has taken some of the stridency off his style in the recent video, while sticking to his earlier conclusion, which shows maturity in my opinion.

I have a PX-S3000, and I don't feel the issue is as important as he does, where he essentially dismisses the S-3000 from consideration. As essentially an adult beginning again with piano, my technique is poor and the nuance of downweight difference from playing the black keys too quickly or without enough dynamic subtlety as they are lighter than the white keys is the least of my problems. The PX-S series offers great value and I still have recommended it to friends.

For those of you that are more advanced players, where do your fingertips fall most often while playing the black keys? I think the shorter pivot point of the PX-S series is a much more noticeable issue than the lighter downweight of the black keys. Toward the fall board the white keys are noticeably hard to play, and I would gladly have the S3000 be an inch or two deeper to get a longer pivot point on all the keys.

I assume Casio was aware of the issue James has pointed about, but perhaps wonder if they didn't consider most people to play the black keys more toward the middle of their length? I wonder at what distance moving back along their length the downweight of the black keys might match the downweight of the white keys.

FYI, in looking at his channel yesterday, I found some interesting (and lengthy) videos comparing the CP88, MP11SE, RD-2000, Stage 3 that offered information I hadn't really seen before. I think his channel will become more popular down the road.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Tom Fort #2968809 04/19/20 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Fort
I assume Casio was aware of the issue James has pointed about, but perhaps wonder if they didn't consider most people to play the black keys more toward the middle of their length? I wonder at what distance moving back along their length the downweight of the black keys might match the downweight of the white keys.

Is it really the case that "most people play black keys towards the middle?" In my case that's hardly true; where on the key my finger rests generally depends on which finger is doing the playing (my thumb rarely ever plays a key in the middle) and what my other fingers need to do, and this applies to both white and black keys.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2968838 04/19/20 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Is it really the case that "most people play black keys towards the middle?" In my case that's hardly true; where on the key my finger rests generally depends on which finger is doing the playing (my thumb rarely ever plays a key in the middle) and what my other fingers need to do, and this applies to both white and black keys.

I don't know the answer, that's why I asked the question in the previous paragraph. Where on the black keys (and white keys, why not?) do you most frequently play?

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2968840 04/19/20 02:39 PM
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It depends on the situation and which finger we're talking about, honestly. I think most people play the black keys fairly close to the end, when possible. However, most people don't play all the way out on the end of the white keys, except for special circumstances (large stretches, for example). When I'm trying to smooth out certain technical passages (take octave runs as one scenario), I often teach my students not to move in and out so much with their arms, but rather to "straighten out" the passage in a more linear fashion across the keys.

In the case of the Casio, I think overarching design priorities included minimum size (including depth) and lightest possible weight in a weighted, scaled hammer action. Something's got to give at just 25 pounds and only 9 inches deep...


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Almaviva #2968878 04/19/20 04:30 PM
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I find very funny that some people take it almost like a personal attack. grin

Originally Posted by Almaviva
Some of you guys are much too hard on this kid. He is not a troll, nor is he a spoiled brat.

Even though he is only 19 years old, James Pavel Shawcross has been a serious piano student since early childhood, with lots of emphasis on the classical repertoire. He is certainly capable of giving an honest appraisal of the strengths and weaknesses of acoustic and digital pianos. I guess you could say he calls 'em as he sees 'em.

By the way, I am NOT related to this kid, nor do I have any business relationships with him. (LOL.) I've never even met him. I just enjoy his YouTube videos. I find them informative and entertaining, even if I do not always agree with his conclusions.

Absolutely THIS ^^


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2968976 04/19/20 08:29 PM
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So it'd be interesting to know if Casio did this in purpose, which I suppose they did.

Probably they concluded that keeping the same downweight in black keys as the white ones would've made the black ones nearly unplayable anywhere but in the tip of the key, due to the short pivot length.

If this is is the case I think it's a reasonable choice, but I also see how this will affect control on subtle pieces. So, this would be yet another shortcoming of the short pivot length.

Perhaps it was a bad decision by casio to shrink down the piano that much, at least in the pivot direction. It's not really worth it, since usually weight (and not size) is the limiting factor for transport, and the piano's weight is pretty standard.

I suppose they did it for the looks and for the "slimmest weighted DP ever" title.

Last edited by RodrigoPon; 04/19/20 08:33 PM.
Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2969223 04/20/20 12:59 PM
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Mike Martin and Rich Formidoni of Casio did a livestream Q&A on the PX-S1000 and S3000 on Facebook/YouTube on April 6th and this issue was raised as one of the first questions. They said they were aware of the video in question (presumably James' first video, as the second came out on 4/3 and probably hadn't been widely discussed yet).

They were a bit defensive, stating that weighing the keys only on the ends is not representative of the way people play and should not be the way to judge the PX-S series' action. Rich also stated that there was nothing overlooked [when the action was designed] and that the action is not flawed:

Their response is from10:41 - 12:04 of the video. I think this link will take you straight to where their response starts:
https://youtu.be/O3Pmk3Kwk6Y?t=641

I also made a comment on James' second YouTube video which I can see when logged into my Google account but is not publicly viewable otherwise. It appears James may be moderating the comments?

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