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Re: Played an Estonia today... #296792
06/06/06 11:48 AM
06/06/06 11:48 AM
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Sir Lurksalot Offline
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Re: Played an Estonia today... #296793
06/06/06 01:01 PM
06/06/06 01:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 999
The Midwest
George K Offline
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George K  Offline
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Posts: 999
The Midwest
He got majorly hacked....


[Linked Image]
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296794
06/06/06 04:06 PM
06/06/06 04:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 293
Puget Sound, WA
hiracer Offline
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hiracer  Offline
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Puget Sound, WA
Quote
Originally posted by mikhailoh:
This thing of are they 'better' than Boseways or Steinahas is just silly.
I beg your pardon. Since we took in our Estonia about a year and half ago, we have played MANY Steinways (e.g., son just got back from winning a multistate middle school competition in Idaho).

I have yet to hear or play a single Steinway in the same league as our Estonia that wasn't in a showroom. Maybe it's because ours is well cared for, still new, an exceptional model, whatever. But frankly, my estimation of Steinway, new or old, has gone down several notches since getting to know our Estonia.

Not what most of you want to hear, but the truth is that we don't consider Steinway to be in the same league as Estonia. It lacks the sustain, and in particular the high notes just plink.

And I say "we," because I'm including my 14 year old son in this, the one who originally didn't want the Estonia. But he has concluded that, despite having played at upteem locales typically on the ever so ubiquitous Steinway and an odd Bosie or Baldwin thrown in here and there, none of them sound or play as nice as his piano at home. He was not an Estonia fan at first, but just the other day he reflected that he can't seem find another piano as nice anywhere, no matter where he plays.

Estonias get no respect because the price carries no cachet.

I make no apologies for my strong opinion. Yes, my militancy on this question is growing over time. It comes not from show-room comparisons, but rather from comparisons of real pianos in real environments, from two university schools of music, to various teachers' homes, community colleges, performance houses, numerous churches, and pianos residing in friends and aquaintances' houses. In the past year-and-a-half, we've played them all.

I heard a really nice Steinway in the showroom, wood floors, glass wall on one side, bare walls, no furniture, etc. I haven't heard a good once since.

In the real world, Steinways don't sound so good to this set of ears. Yes, it's got huge name recognition, and I'm sure with proper care one can be made to sound quite nice--I've heard it myself in the show room--but that wonderful sound is largely missing in the real world where we live.


John, and my two sons play an Estonia 190 and a Samick upright.
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296795
06/06/06 04:12 PM
06/06/06 04:12 PM
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SteveY Offline
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Anyone who thinks Estonia is in the same league as Steinway should buy an Estonia. The extra tone, musicality & expense would be a complete waste of money for them.


PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296796
06/06/06 04:14 PM
06/06/06 04:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 293
Puget Sound, WA
hiracer Offline
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hiracer  Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by SteveY:
Anyone who thinks Estonia is in the same league as Steinway should buy an Estonia. The extra tone, musicality & expense would be a complete waste of money for them.
There usually is a reason why people resort to ad hominem attacks.

Have a nice day.


John, and my two sons play an Estonia 190 and a Samick upright.
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296797
06/06/06 04:30 PM
06/06/06 04:30 PM
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Posts: 1,820
NJ
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SteveY Offline
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I don't recall attacking anyone. I'm merely stating my opinion.

The same is true with any piano. There is a poster in the digital piano board who swears that his $700 Casio outplays most acoustic concert grands -- a claim that I find absurd. However, if that's what his ears tell him, who is to say that he needs to spend $30k+ to get what he's looking for in an instrument.

To my ears, the Estonia is a mid-level piano at best. This is what I do for a living, and yes, I split hairs with this stuff. It's often the difference between good and great. So I'll say it again, if you think Estonia is as good as a Steinway, go ahead and buy one. The only person you really need to please with your purchase is yourself.


PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296798
06/06/06 04:31 PM
06/06/06 04:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,618
Geneva, Switzerland
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
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Geneva, Switzerland
Well, one thing you can say about Estonia pianos is that they certainly excite strong emotions :rolleyes: .

For a manufacturer that appears to play so much on their quasi-exotic (Eastern) European-ness and sells 90% of its production in the US, it is a bit of a shame that those of us actually in Europe have so little opportunity to play one.

Remember the chap who bought one from California and imported it to northern Italy, only to find that his nearest dealer was in fact over 700 miles away in Hanover? And there was none in reasonable striking distance from here when I was shopping.

Perhaps we Europeans don't deserve them, and so have to put up with those lowly also-rans such as Hamburg Steinway, Fazioli, Bösendorfer, Bechstein, Blüthner, etc? wink

- Michael B.


There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296799
06/06/06 04:51 PM
06/06/06 04:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,387
Urbandale, Iowa
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Steve Chandler Offline
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Urbandale, Iowa
Well Michael,

Please try to understand that if you were a struggling piano factory in the ashes of the former Soviet Union where would you go to sell your wares. Europeans already have many great piano brands, which you were so kind to name. Americans have as large a market, but in our ignorance we don't know Estonia from Latvia from the Czech Republic. And in our desire to do good in the world we actually seek to help former enemies by buying their products. Of course I'm being a bit facetious we're just seeking to buy the lowest cost labor. It's the same story as with the Chinese. You can't blame Indrek Laul for exporting to the USA, it is as you've implied probably an easier market to compete in. I only hope that the factory is able to increase production to the point that we'll be able to share our wonderful Estonia pianos with our European friends. It seems sadly for the time being we'll be keeping them to ourselves because the Estonia factory can't keep up with demand here. It also seems to sadly be the same with the great American piano Mason & Hamlin. Perhaps next time you visit Hanover you'll have a chance to stop in and visit that dealer?

Oh and yes I own an Estonia 190 too.

Re: Played an Estonia today... #296800
06/06/06 05:04 PM
06/06/06 05:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 293
Puget Sound, WA
hiracer Offline
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hiracer  Offline
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Posts: 293
Puget Sound, WA
Quote
Originally posted by SteveY:
The extra tone, musicality & expense would be a complete waste of money for them.
Ad hominem: Appealing to one's personal considerations rather than to logic or reason. American Heritage College dic.tion.ary (3rd Edition).

Quote
Originally posted by SteveY:
I don't recall attacking anyone.
No honesty problem here, no sir.

I can handle somebody saying I'm wrong, that Steinways are as good or better. To each his own. But to claim that I can't tell the difference by someone who has never even met me . . . says more about them than me.


John, and my two sons play an Estonia 190 and a Samick upright.
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296801
06/06/06 05:13 PM
06/06/06 05:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
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Haven't I read here that few grands, comparitavely, are sold in Europe because their homes often lack the space for one? Maybe North America is a much better market.


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296802
06/06/06 05:29 PM
06/06/06 05:29 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,918
idaho
T
teachum Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,918
idaho
Quote
Originally posted by apple*:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pianobuilder:
[qb] ]?

- apple, wondering how the Estonia compares to the M&H (B or BB), the Steinway (new or rebuilt), the Kawai or the Kohler and Campbell ... i personally think a Yamaha is nothing at all like an Estonia.. a totally different type of piano
Ditto, ditto, ditto. They are in a class of their own. IMO as someone who played everything she could get her hands on and actually didn't WANT to fall in love with Estonia!


You will be 10 years older, ten years from now, no matter what you do - so go for it!

Estonia #6141 in Satin Mahogany
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296803
06/06/06 05:31 PM
06/06/06 05:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
apple* Offline
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Kansas
heh


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296804
06/06/06 05:32 PM
06/06/06 05:32 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,918
idaho
T
teachum Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,918
idaho
Quote
Originally posted by George K:
Seems that they're having some issues there:

[Linked Image]
The issue is that Mark got hacked by some jerks. Wonder what kind of piano they sell? :rolleyes:


You will be 10 years older, ten years from now, no matter what you do - so go for it!

Estonia #6141 in Satin Mahogany
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296805
06/06/06 06:05 PM
06/06/06 06:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,820
NJ
S
SteveY Offline
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NJ
Quote
I can handle somebody saying I'm wrong, that Steinways are as good or better. To each his own. But to claim that I can't tell the difference by someone who has never even met me . . . says more about them than me.
Hold onto your horses. I don't know you. I don't know anything about you. AND I WASN'T POSTING ABOUT YOU!!!

In fact, if you look at the time-stamp on your post, you'll notice that my post was submitted 6 minutes after yours. I never even saw your post when I wrote mine. Unless I'm mistaken, you hadn't even joined into the discussion.

Now who is making judgments about someone without knowing them?


PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296806
06/06/06 07:04 PM
06/06/06 07:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 293
Puget Sound, WA
hiracer Offline
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hiracer  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 293
Puget Sound, WA
Quote
Originally posted by SteveY:
AND I WASN'T POSTING ABOUT YOU!!!
I write a diatribe against Steinway, and six minutes later your post is also focused on Steinway and Estonia just like my post, your post being a short two sentences that took about one minute to compose and send.

Who was your posted directed to? Nobody in particular?? Just a thought out of the blue?

I post in response and you post a second time:

Quote
Originally posted by SteveY:
So I'll say it again, if you think Estonia is as good as a Steinway . . . .
Who is this "you?" Someone other than me, right?

One of us is real confused.


John, and my two sons play an Estonia 190 and a Samick upright.
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296807
06/06/06 07:32 PM
06/06/06 07:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,990
Haverhill, Massachusetts
J
John Citron Offline
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Haverhill, Massachusetts
Actually the Estonia pianos are very nice instruments, and are in the same league as those made by their other European cousins such as the Schimmel, Schimmel Vogel, Petrof, and others.

They *DO NOT* come close to any of the Japanese or other Asian pianos I've played.

The 190 that I tried didn't appeal to me, but then again it wasn't that bad an instrument. I ended up with the Vogel 177T right next to it, which begged me to bring her home just like long lost puppies do. wink

Anyway, the concert grand I tried ever so briefly was like heaven, and if I could take one home, I would have in a heartbeat.

There is something very special about these pianos that I can't put my finger on. Is it the tone, the touch, I can't figure it out, but the concert grand was pure magic to me.

Hiracer - not to get going with flame wars..., but I agree with you about Steinways. They are so inconsistent it amazes me that so many people rave about them. Then again it's most likely their strong marketing team and brandname. When I was studying piano, I had lessons on Model B's and Model C's. To me they were so difficult to play with their hard touch, and difficult to control treble, that I used to dread the lessons in those studios.

John


Current works in progress:

Beethoven Sonata Op. 10 No. 2 in F, Haydn Sonata Hoboken XVI:41, Bach French Suite No. 5 in G BWV 816

Current instruments: Schimmel-Vogel 177T grand, Roland LX-17 digital, and John Lyon unfretted Saxon clavichord.
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296808
06/06/06 07:42 PM
06/06/06 07:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,820
NJ
S
SteveY Offline
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NJ
Quote
I write a diatribe against Steinway, and six minutes later your post is also focused on Steinway and Estonia just like my post, your post being a short two sentences that took about one minute to compose and send.
First of all, I never read your post. I already said that. Secondly, where is all this hostility coming from? You jump all over me for seemingly judging you, yet you're doing it to me. I don't get it. The only ad hominem attacks I've seen are yours.

I stand by my opinion about Estonias/Steinways. Yet I never meant to single you out or insult you. I don't even know you. I was part of this thread before you were. That should have been your first clue that I wasn't talking directly to you. If I had been directing my post toward you, I would have quoted you. However, if I offended you, I apologize. Can we move on now?


PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296809
06/06/06 07:51 PM
06/06/06 07:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 678
Herndon, VA
kokomo61 Offline
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Herndon, VA
Quote
I agree with you about Steinways. They are so inconsistent it amazes me that so many people rave about them.
As someone who comes from outside of the piano world (grew up as a guitarist, with piano a distant second), I think the Steinway issue is one similar to Martin guitars - Both companies make fine instruments, have strong marketing teams and endorsement deals, and have a long history behind them (both are 100+ years old)....and both continue to put out instruments that can be very inconsistent with their reputations... eek

Yamaha, on the other hand, is a lot more like their guitar divsion counterpart - both make solidly strong instruments at a lower price point that are extremely consistent from one instrument to the next. They DO make higher end, concert quality instruments in both lines, but it's a much smaller part of their business than it is for Steinway - essentially their primary focus. They've earned their reputation and place in the industry, and many people are willing to live with the inconsistency because of the prestige of the brand name.

I think the industry ideal (for me, at least) would be someone who could do for pianos what Taylor has done for acoustic guitars - produce extremely consistent, well-prepped professional quality instruments - the best of both worlds. Since the piano is a much more complex instrument to build, it may be a pipe dream, but if you ever get a chance to tour Taylor's factory in El Cajon, CA, it's well worth the visit.


Estonia 190, #6098
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296810
06/06/06 08:54 PM
06/06/06 08:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 293
Puget Sound, WA
hiracer Offline
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hiracer  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 293
Puget Sound, WA
Quote
Originally posted by John Citron:
When I was studying piano, I had lessons on Model B's and Model C's. To me they were so difficult to play with their hard touch, and difficult to control treble, that I used to dread the lessons in those studios.

John
Guess I'm in the mood to be disagreeable today. Actually, I've always thought that the action was one of the strong points of Steinway. Somewhat light, fast. Maybe not consistent, but that's what technicians are for.

Changing gears, I'm hyper senstive to tone. Probably comes from my classical guitar background. CG is an instrument that is all about tone. When I say I do or don't like a piano, the subtext is 90% that the tone does or does not speak to me. I can adapt to an action, within reason. Tone I can't.

I'm sure many would take the above statement as a sign of idiocy, but that's just what's important to me. To me, the be-all end-all of pianos is tone. I have real strong reactions to tone. And there are surprisingly few pianos whose tone moves me.

What prompted my initial diatribe (let's call it was it is) is that I used to LOVE Steinways. But I've clearly fallen out of love, and the split was all about tone.


John, and my two sons play an Estonia 190 and a Samick upright.
Re: Played an Estonia today... #296811
06/06/06 08:57 PM
06/06/06 08:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,288
Cincinnati
mikhailoh Offline
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Cincinnati
The Steinway B I played that was prepped to the nines for a concert was like nothing else I've played before or since. It was otherworldly in its response, action and singing tone.

The potential is there.. you just have to get it out.


Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
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