2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
56 members (accordeur, 36251, Brendan, AjinoRegret, Boboulus, Avid, 17 invisible), 525 guests, and 457 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
#2965261 04/09/20 11:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 94
J
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 94
I’m not talking about the Yamaha virtual pianos— I’m talking about the built-in Yamaha CFX Grand voice on Yamaha digital pianos such as the P515 and the YDP-144. I’ve heard that Pure CF Sampling has only 4 samples per note which I feel is a bit too little. So I’m wondering how many samples per note Yamaha’s CFX Sampling has.


Finally bought the P515
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965279 04/10/20 02:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,233
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,233
Good luck finding out. This used to be a spec that was touted in the marketing materials. But that was years ago. These days I don't see any mention.

Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965376 04/10/20 11:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 89
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 89
I think it´s 4 layers with a more advanced interpolation...

I would love to see yamaha set up their game to sample quality like Nord... they are unbeatable for a standalone product, in sound department

Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965390 04/10/20 12:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,022
E
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,022
Well the much older CLP-380 (from 2008 or thereabouts) had five dynamic sample layers with key off and string resonance. This of course pre-dates the CFX. I would imagine the current CFX sound (assuming it is the same across the entire range - which it may not be) has five levels or possibly more.

And 'Pure CF' sampling is not the relevant sound engine for the most recent Yamahas with the CFX sample. Pure CF can be found on lower level Yamahas such as the P125.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 | Kawai VPC1
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965397 04/10/20 12:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,423
G
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,423
I would be shocked if PureCF Sampling had 4 velocity layers per note. IIRC, it doesn't even sample every note (it's stretched every x notes).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
Gombessa #2965400 04/10/20 12:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,022
E
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,022
Originally Posted by Gombessa
I would be shocked if PureCF Sampling had 4 velocity layers per note. IIRC, it doesn't even sample every note (it's stretched every x notes).

I think it's likely Pure CF does indeed have four layers. The engine prior to Pure CF (as found in CP33 for instance or Modus H1) had three dynamic levels.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 | Kawai VPC1
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965402 04/10/20 12:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,022
E
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,022
Just to look back a bit it is quite sobering to review the specification of the CLP-990 - launched 20 years ago:

The CLP-990 GrandPiano1 voice features totally new samples painstakingly recorded from each key of a full concert grand piano. The CLP-990 GrandPiano1 voice features five velocity- switched samples (Dynamic Sampling), a “Soundboard Reverb” effect that accurately simulates the resonance of a piano soundboard, “String Resonance” that recreates resonance of piano strings, special “Sustain Sampling” that samples the unique resonance of an acoustic grand piano’s soundboard and strings when the damper pedal is pressed, and “Key-off Samples” that add the subtle sound produced when the keys are released.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 | Kawai VPC1
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965403 04/10/20 12:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,133
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,133
This old thread analyses the samples of legacy digital pianos. It might provide some clues. It has analysis of the older Yamaha N3 and N1, for example.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1365103/the-dpbsd-project.html

Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965418 04/10/20 01:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,519
C
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,519

Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965431 04/10/20 02:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,482
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,482
Originally Posted by joemama42O
I’m not talking about the Yamaha virtual pianos— I’m talking about the built-in Yamaha CFX Grand voice on Yamaha digital pianos such as the P515 and the YDP-144. I’ve heard that Pure CF Sampling has only 4 samples per note which I feel is a bit too little. So I’m wondering how many samples per note Yamaha’s CFX Sampling has.

My first thought, what will you do with that information?

I don't count the number of samples nor note polyphony.

I just use my ears.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965444 04/10/20 02:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,233
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,233
I'm with you, Dave. Ears are my only measuring instruments. They're the only gear that matters.

But if, as I suspect, your avatar is that of van Gogh ... then I have to ask: Are your ears adequate to the task? smile

Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
Dave Horne #2965486 04/10/20 05:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 562
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by joemama42O
I’m not talking about the Yamaha virtual pianos— I’m talking about the built-in Yamaha CFX Grand voice on Yamaha digital pianos such as the P515 and the YDP-144. I’ve heard that Pure CF Sampling has only 4 samples per note which I feel is a bit too little. So I’m wondering how many samples per note Yamaha’s CFX Sampling has.

My first thought, what will you do with that information?

I don't count the number of samples nor note polyphony.

I just use my ears.

New Casio SA-46 meets your expectations:



Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
MacMacMac #2965491 04/10/20 05:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 562
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm with you, Dave. Ears are my only measuring instruments. They're the only gear that matters.

But if, as I suspect, your avatar is that of van Gogh ... then I have to ask: Are your ears adequate to the task? smile

Polyphony isn't just a number. First of all 128 notes polyphony in Yamaha's book is 128 samples, MONO. So 128 samples stereo is actual 64 stereo samples. This is the default scenario with all Yamaha's synths. If you read Yamaha Montage's specs it says 256 (128 stereo) polyphony.

Now if you add any other stereo samples, emulations, etc it reduces the overall polyphony by even a larger factor.

You have to check and see if the digital piano you have is like Yamaha CP-88 or is like MP7SE. CP-88 uses key-off in addition to different velocity layers and maybe damper noise.

This is much more demanding on MP7SE or P-515 as the most likely use other samples in conjunction with the velocity layers.

After arranging hours of music and listening to them I have dealt with polyphony limitations so many times and I can assure you that those numbers matter a lot.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
Abdol #2965642 04/11/20 09:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,482
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,482
"After arranging hours of music and listening to them I have dealt with polyphony limitations so many times and I can assure you that those numbers matter a lot."

I owned a Yamaha GranTouch before I bought my AvantGrand N3.

The GranTouch had 32 note stereo polyphony.

My experience with this pitifully small number? I never once noticed any notes dropping out, never. I was just using the GranTouch as a ... piano.

I wasn't layering, I was just playing piano music. For piano players just playing without layering, whatever the minimum note polyphony being offered today is more than adequate.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965647 04/11/20 09:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,233
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,233
Dave ... for some people the piano is engineering. For others it is art.

Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965654 04/11/20 09:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,285
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,285


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965664 04/11/20 10:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,519
C
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,519
Polyphony is like money.

You don't really need huge amounts of it, but having too little is a problem.

And as piano engines (at best) interpolate between sample layers, but don't extrapolate I can see the need for very low and very high velocity layers and the behaviour between those two unlikely is linear or otherwise easily put into an equation. So some in-between layers are needed.

When talking about VSTs people always say how they have e.g. 10 layers and that's why they are so much better than digital pianos.

So why wouldn't it matter for digital pianos?

(Of course 4 layers of good samples is better than 10 layers of bad samples.)

Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965676 04/11/20 10:30 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,611
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,611
I remember buying a Casio PX310 (with a listed 32 note polyphony, which is probably more like 16 with a stereo sample) and sending it back after just 48 hours and replacing it with a PX200 (w/ 128) and the difference was noticeable. Granted the 200 I believe had an updated sample, but the polyphony limitation was problematic on the 310 with what I was playing.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
terminaldegree #2965774 04/11/20 02:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,287
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,287
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
I remember buying a Casio PX310 (with a listed 32 note polyphony, which is probably more like 16 with a stereo sample) and sending it back after just 48 hours and replacing it with a PX200 (w/ 128) and the difference was noticeable. Granted the 200 I believe had an updated sample, but the polyphony limitation was problematic on the 310 with what I was playing.

Too much pedal? grin


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: How many samples per key does Yamaha’s CFX Sampling have?
joemama42O #2965829 04/11/20 04:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,779
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,779
Originally Posted by joemama42O
I’m not talking about the Yamaha virtual pianos— I’m talking about the built-in Yamaha CFX Grand voice on Yamaha digital pianos such as the P515 and the YDP-144. I’ve heard that Pure CF Sampling has only 4 samples per note which I feel is a bit too little. So I’m wondering how many samples per note Yamaha’s CFX Sampling has.

It's somewhat irrelevant because you can tell how good a Yamaha is by playing it.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Musician's Hand Sanitizer available in our online store (and our Maple Street Music shop in Cornish Maine). Antibacterial, 62% ethyl alcohol. Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Tons more music related products in our online store!
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Kawai means cute and adorable
by Fleer - 05/26/20 06:12 PM
What happened to the 'real' Feurich?
by williambonard - 05/26/20 03:51 PM
An easier arrangement of Bach 639
by Chordo24 - 05/26/20 01:54 PM
Tuning book from 1860
by Craig Hair - 05/26/20 01:01 PM
So here’s an odd piano for sale.
by jakedaniel - 05/26/20 11:51 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics199,202
Posts2,962,478
Members97,191
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4