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Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
#2964656 04/08/20 10:59 AM
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I'm so close to buying the MP11SE. It will be my first Digital Piano. I would hate to finally take the plunge and then the MP12 come out with maybe the GF3 action. I really wouldn't mind waiting several months for it and buying something much much cheaper to tick me over until then (i haven't played for a couple of years since I moved to NYC).

Does anyone here have any view on the Kawai update cycle?

The other keyboard I was thinking about was the RD 2000 - mainly because it looks fun. Is the action really that much worse? I've always played acoustic pianos (mainly uprights).

Given the lockdown, and especially NYC, i'm likely not going to get to try them out for a couple of months.

Thanks!!

Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
thedigitalabyss #2964669 04/08/20 11:47 AM
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I would be surprised when the MP12 comes out if it gets GFIII. Most likely get GFII. Would be great if it got the latest action but it usually trails one generation behind in that department. Now comparing the PHA-50 action in the Roland is very subjective. Some like it better others like the Kawai action better. Both action are good. The Roland RD2000 is more a gigging stage piano with all the other sounds in it. The MP11SE is the best if mainly for piano sounds. Also the MP11SE is a beast to move around.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
EPW #2964676 04/08/20 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by EPW
I would be surprised when the MP12 comes out if it gets GFIII. Most likely get GFII.


I disagree. But I really don't have any insider knowledge on this. I think an MP12 is more imminent than an ES9, since there's already been an update to the action and tweaks to the sample behavior in the most recent CAx9 series product. I am unaware that GF-III presents any difficulties in terms of packaging or mounting in the current chassis. The RHIII action, or the action Kawai is using in that price/weight class hasn't changed to my knowledge, by comparison.

Again, just speculating here.


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Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
thedigitalabyss #2964678 04/08/20 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by thedigitalabyss
I'm so close to buying the MP11SE. It will be my first Digital Piano. I would hate to finally take the plunge and then the MP12 come out with maybe the GF3 action. I really wouldn't mind waiting several months for it and buying something much much cheaper to tick me over until then (i haven't played for a couple of years since I moved to NYC).

Does anyone here have any view on the Kawai update cycle?

The other keyboard I was thinking about was the RD 2000 - mainly because it looks fun. Is the action really that much worse? I've always played acoustic pianos (mainly uprights).

Given the lockdown, and especially NYC, i'm likely not going to get to try them out for a couple of months.

Thanks!!


Hi the digitalabyss,

This is a duplicated post regarding the MP12..
If you search on google, you'll find lots of speculation on the MP12 already.

The RD2000 is a great board, as is the MP11SE. Make sure you try them both, as they are pretty different beasts.
The only issue with the RD2000 is that if you go to the store and test with headphones, you will think it sounds rubbish.
Ask in advance for them to have a headphone amp ready for you, because the one inside the RD2000 doesn't do the instrument justice at all.

The MP11SE is something like 60 Lbs, so it is not going to incorporate an even longer action than it has. One suspects that if they release an MP12, it will be a modified Grand Feel action, or, it will be named the MP100 after the number of Lbs it will weigh to fit in a GF3 action lol...

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
thedigitalabyss #2964698 04/08/20 01:25 PM
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In NYC you have the Sam Ash and B&H Camera by Port Authority Bus Terminal; they have a massive on-floor inventory so are worth jumping on the subway to try out whatever they have. Once the current situation is sorted out.

I would guess the launch of many new consumer products will be delayed. Why run a big marketing campaign when nobody is buying. Also, it might be easier (for operations and cash investment) just to keep producing current product for an extended period of time. I should have asked my marketing buddy at Epson in Tokyo for general guidance.

It is possible, OTOH that Kawai James has 100.000 MP12 and 1.000.000 VPC2 sitting in his mansion waiting to be shipped.

Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
terminaldegree #2964700 04/08/20 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by EPW
I would be surprised when the MP12 comes out if it gets GFIII. Most likely get GFII.

I disagree.

+1. GF/GFII are the passed stage with their reliability issues. There is no turning back when GFIII exists.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
I expect the successor to the MP11SE will include Kawai's latest wooden key keyboard action (e.g. GFIII).

Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
thedigitalabyss #2964704 04/08/20 01:36 PM
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1999 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MP9000 (wooden action)
2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2001 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2002 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MP9500 (wooden action)
2003 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2004 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2005 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MP8 (wooden action) + MP4 (plastic action)
2006 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2007 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MP8ii (wooden action) + MP5 (plastic action)
2008 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2009 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2010 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MP10 (wooden action) + MP6 (plastic action)
2011 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2012 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2013 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2014 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MP11 (wooden action) + MP7 (plastic action)
2015 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2016 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2017 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MP11SE (wooden action) + MP7SE (plastic action)
2018 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2019 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing
2020 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing so far

Most likely an announcement of MP12 by late 2020 or early 2021, with a release no later than the end of 2021, if they keep following this release cycle pattern.
Hopefully it won't be a disappointment again.

Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
thedigitalabyss #2964719 04/08/20 02:21 PM
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Cool to know it might get the GFIII action. Anyone looking for a Stage piano with the best action would have to look no further. Of course you better start hitting the weights now if you need to transport it regularly smile


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
thedigitalabyss #2964759 04/08/20 03:55 PM
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The MP11SE was announced in October of 2017. Three years seems about the right time to have the “SE” model around, as it was viewed as a stopgap model or minor update to milk along the MP11 until an MP12 was ready.

I’d assume the MP12 would get the GF3 action when it does come out. The GF3 is an improved version of the GF2, addressing its biggest flaws with the plastic keystick caps and the mushy bottoming-out feeling. It should be essentially the same size and weight as the GF2 action I’d think, so the MP12 would also likely not weigh more than the MP11SE’s already very hefty 75 lbs.

A bigger question is if Kawai will put their best action into the VPC2. Based on the VPC1, logic would indicate the VPC2 getting the GF-C. If Kawai follows their stated intention to make the VPC the best piano controller possible, for those wanting the most piano-like experience, it would get the GF3. IIRC Kawai was limited when designing the VPC-1 to using the MP10’s physical case, which prevented them from using the GF action. Similarly the MP11 case could not accommodate some hammer design changes when the GF action was updated to the GF2, so the MP11 and MP11SE stayed with the GF.

I think the VPC1 is overpriced as is at the moment and a VPC2 would not sell well if the price was kept the same with the GF-C action. I think it’s possible that Kawai will put the GF3 into a VPC2 and maintain the current price point of the VPC1. It’s also possible that Kawai would raise the price of a VPC2 with GF3 so as not to cannibalizes sales of the MP12. I hope not as the VPC-1 is overpriced in the US market as is; I really don’t understand Kawai USA vs Kawai Europe pricing choices.

I hope that Kawai saw a bunch of technological changes were coming with MIDI 2.0, new DSP chips, cheaper and larger memory chips, the switch to the USB-C connector, ubiquitous cheap touchscreens due to smartphones, etc. and tried to time the MP12’s release to come out once all of those technologies could be incorporated into a “proper” MP11 successor. That MP12 would then have a logical niche in the market to occupy, the best “stage” piano possible, with the best action available, for those who can accommodate the weight. Nord’s Grand, Yamaha’s CP88, and Roland’s RD-2000 would all be fighting in the different category of best stage piano under 50 lbs.

If Kawai wants to maintain their price points and product differentiations, we’ll see the GF-C in a VPC2 and the GF3 in an MP12 somewhat soon, hopefully this summer or fall. If Kawai really wants the VPC2 to do well, it will have to lower the price a bit and put in the GF3. That decision was probably made two or three years ago, i guess we’ll find out soon what they chose.

I am hoping to buy a GF3-based VPC2 at a lower price point in the US than the current VPC1. But I’m not holding my breath; I bought a Casio PX-S3000 to tide me over after my divorce and it’s great for the price. Paying $1,000 more for a GF-C based VPC2 would not make sense.

Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
Tom Fort #2964763 04/08/20 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Fort
The MP11SE was announced in October of 2017. Three years seems about the right time to have the “SE” model around, as it was viewed as a stopgap model or minor update to milk along the MP11 until an MP12 was ready.

I’d assume the MP12 would get the GF3 action when it does come out. The GF3 is an improved version of the GF2, addressing its biggest flaws with the plastic keystick caps and the mushy bottoming-out feeling. It should be essentially the same size and weight as the GF2 action I’d think, so the MP12 would also likely not weigh more than the MP11SE’s already very hefty 75 lbs.

A bigger question is if Kawai will put their best action into the VPC2. Based on the VPC1, logic would indicate the VPC2 getting the GF-C. If Kawai follows their stated intention to make the VPC the best piano controller possible, for those wanting the most piano-like experience, it would get the GF3. IIRC Kawai was limited when designing the VPC-1 to using the MP10’s physical case, which prevented them from using the GF action. Similarly the MP11 case could not accommodate some hammer design changes when the GF action was updated to the GF2, so the MP11 and MP11SE stayed with the GF.

I think the VPC1 is overpriced as is at the moment and a VPC2 would not sell well if the price was kept the same with the GF-C action. I think it’s possible that Kawai will put the GF3 into a VPC2 and maintain the current price point of the VPC1. It’s also possible that Kawai would raise the price of a VPC2 with GF3 so as not to cannibalizes sales of the MP12. I hope not as the VPC-1 is overpriced in the US market as is; I really don’t understand Kawai USA vs Kawai Europe pricing choices.

I hope that Kawai saw a bunch of technological changes were coming with MIDI 2.0, new DSP chips, cheaper and larger memory chips, the switch to the USB-C connector, ubiquitous cheap touchscreens due to smartphones, etc. and tried to time the MP12’s release to come out once all of those technologies could be incorporated into a “proper” MP11 successor. That MP12 would then have a logical niche in the market to occupy, the best “stage” piano possible, with the best action available, for those who can accommodate the weight. Nord’s Grand, Yamaha’s CP88, and Roland’s RD-2000 would all be fighting in the different category of best stage piano under 50 lbs.

If Kawai wants to maintain their price points and product differentiations, we’ll see the GF-C in a VPC2 and the GF3 in an MP12 somewhat soon, hopefully this summer or fall. If Kawai really wants the VPC2 to do well, it will have to lower the price a bit and put in the GF3. That decision was probably made two or three years ago, i guess we’ll find out soon what they chose.

I am hoping to buy a GF3-based VPC2 at a lower price point in the US than the current VPC1. But I’m not holding my breath; I bought a Casio PX-S3000 to tide me over after my divorce and it’s great for the price. Paying $1,000 more for a GF-C based VPC2 would not make sense.


Well said. There is absolutely no reason the VPC-1 should be more expensive than the ES8. The VPC-1 is a top of the line controller. It had better have the most top of the line action (that can fit). Same with the MP12.

Last edited by JoeThePro; 04/08/20 04:11 PM.
Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
thedigitalabyss #2964769 04/08/20 04:38 PM
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I wonder if Kawai would try to save money and design just one new case for the GF3 in a slab-style piano, and use it for both the MP12 and VPC2. There might be a lot of unneeded space in that case for the VPC2 since there's really not a lot of electronics in a controller, it's essentially just the action, a controller chip or two, and a few ports for pedals and USB. I'm worried that Kawai wants to keep the MP12 as the only slab version of the GF3, and will instead shoehorn the GF-C into the existing VPC-1 case. That would keep their products differentiated, but really reduce the potential market for the VPC2 unless they dropped the price substantially. Hopefully with enough lead time Kawai chose to give the VPC2 and MP12 their own new case designs.

I really think the key concept of the VPC series ought to require Kawai's best action, in this case the GF3. The GF-C would be better in terms of pivot length than the RM3 Grand II in the VPC1, but if it's not Kawai's best action then it would fail to meet its stated purpose. I don't want to buy a VPC to get Kawai's 2nd best.

Last edited by Tom Fort; 04/08/20 04:42 PM.
Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
Tom Fort #2964774 04/08/20 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Fort
I wonder if Kawai would try to save money and design just one new case for the GF3 in a slab-style piano, and use it for both the MP12 and VPC2. There might be a lot of unneeded space in that case for the VPC2 since there's really not a lot of electronics in a controller, it's essentially just the action, a controller chip or two, and a few ports for pedals and USB. I'm worried that Kawai wants to keep the MP12 as the only slab version of the GF3, and will instead shoehorn the GF-C into the existing VPC-1 case. That would keep their products differentiated, but really reduce the potential market for the VPC2 unless they dropped the price substantially. Hopefully with enough lead time Kawai chose to give the VPC2 and MP12 their own new case designs.

I really think the key concept of the VPC series ought to require Kawai's best action, in this case the GF3. The GF-C would be better in terms of pivot length than the RM3 Grand II in the VPC1, but if it's not Kawai's best action then it would fail to meet its stated purpose. I don't want to buy a VPC to get Kawai's 2nd best.


I would be satisfied with the GF-C in the VPC2, to keep cost down. If you really want GFIII in a portable housing, then I think it would make sense to have to move up to the MP12 in size/cost.

Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
Tom Fort #2964779 04/08/20 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Fort
The MP11SE was announced in October of 2017. Three years seems about the right time to have the “SE” model around, as it was viewed as a stopgap model or minor update to milk along the MP11 until an MP12 was ready.

I’d assume the MP12 would get the GF3 action when it does come out. The GF3 is an improved version of the GF2, addressing its biggest flaws with the plastic keystick caps and the mushy bottoming-out feeling. It should be essentially the same size and weight as the GF2 action I’d think, so the MP12 would also likely not weigh more than the MP11SE’s already very hefty 75 lbs.

A bigger question is if Kawai will put their best action into the VPC2. Based on the VPC1, logic would indicate the VPC2 getting the GF-C. If Kawai follows their stated intention to make the VPC the best piano controller possible, for those wanting the most piano-like experience, it would get the GF3. IIRC Kawai was limited when designing the VPC-1 to using the MP10’s physical case, which prevented them from using the GF action. Similarly the MP11 case could not accommodate some hammer design changes when the GF action was updated to the GF2, so the MP11 and MP11SE stayed with the GF.

I think the VPC1 is overpriced as is at the moment and a VPC2 would not sell well if the price was kept the same with the GF-C action. I think it’s possible that Kawai will put the GF3 into a VPC2 and maintain the current price point of the VPC1. It’s also possible that Kawai would raise the price of a VPC2 with GF3 so as not to cannibalizes sales of the MP12. I hope not as the VPC-1 is overpriced in the US market as is; I really don’t understand Kawai USA vs Kawai Europe pricing choices.

I hope that Kawai saw a bunch of technological changes were coming with MIDI 2.0, new DSP chips, cheaper and larger memory chips, the switch to the USB-C connector, ubiquitous cheap touchscreens due to smartphones, etc. and tried to time the MP12’s release to come out once all of those technologies could be incorporated into a “proper” MP11 successor. That MP12 would then have a logical niche in the market to occupy, the best “stage” piano possible, with the best action available, for those who can accommodate the weight. Nord’s Grand, Yamaha’s CP88, and Roland’s RD-2000 would all be fighting in the different category of best stage piano under 50 lbs.

If Kawai wants to maintain their price points and product differentiations, we’ll see the GF-C in a VPC2 and the GF3 in an MP12 somewhat soon, hopefully this summer or fall. If Kawai really wants the VPC2 to do well, it will have to lower the price a bit and put in the GF3. That decision was probably made two or three years ago, i guess we’ll find out soon what they chose.

I am hoping to buy a GF3-based VPC2 at a lower price point in the US than the current VPC1. But I’m not holding my breath; I bought a Casio PX-S3000 to tide me over after my divorce and it’s great for the price. Paying $1,000 more for a GF-C based VPC2 would not make sense.


The price is set by demand and competition.
The demand for this controller is no high and there is no other midi controller that has the action of VPC1. So Kawai can sell it for whatever it sells!


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
thedigitalabyss #2964836 04/08/20 08:57 PM
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We still need to understand if a GF action is better than a folded action. See the Roland LX706, it has a long pivot point, and it's very good. I would deffo buy a Kawai VPC2 if it had a folded action but with a longer pivot point. The problem is, they are going to charge us for every added mm...

Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
Tom Fort #2964839 04/08/20 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by thedigitalabyss
I'm so close to buying the MP11SE. It will be my first Digital Piano. I would hate to finally take the plunge and then the MP12 come out with maybe the GF3 action. I really wouldn't mind waiting several months for it and buying something much much cheaper to tick me over until then (i haven't played for a couple of years since I moved to NYC).
I was in the same situation as you couple of years ago when I was waiting for Novus to be released. I ended up getting a DP from Craigslist and then selling it back to Craigslist - I actually made $700 on this transaction! My experience was an exception, but you could pretty much get close to not loosing more than $100-200 with this approach. This is hard to do in the current environment - but visiting someone's home to pick up a DP may be less risky than going to a store where a lot more people are visiting.
Originally Posted by Tom Fort
A bigger question is if Kawai will put their best action into the VPC2.
Even bigger question is will there ever be VPC2 smile.

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 04/08/20 09:07 PM.

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Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
pold #2964841 04/08/20 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by pold
We still need to understand if a GF action is better than a folded action.


Well established mechanical principles say no. One implementation may be vastly superior than another, but not one type.

Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
johnstaf #2964882 04/09/20 02:35 AM
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That may be true. But I also think an action that more closely mimics the teeter-totter/class 1 lever design of the grand piano keystick, and also incorporates a separate hammer design with sensors measuring hammer movement rather than key movement, will have an easier time trying to replicate all of the up weights, down weights, inertial resistance, etc that collectively make up the overall “feel” of a grand piano action.

Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
Tom Fort #2964906 04/09/20 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Fort
That may be true. But I also think an action that more closely mimics the teeter-totter/class 1 lever design of the grand piano keystick, and also incorporates a separate hammer design with sensors measuring hammer movement rather than key movement, will have an easier time trying to replicate all of the up weights, down weights, inertial resistance, etc that collectively make up the overall “feel” of a grand piano action.


but you have a hammer in the folded action as well.

Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
thedigitalabyss #2964910 04/09/20 06:45 AM
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One thing I recently realized is that the GF action, as a result of being wooden and having front rail pins, utilizes keys with a front hole that has felt bushings, as on real acoustic pianos, which increases the friction slightly and that will contribute to lower upweight which is a step towards realism. Plastic folded actions, unless using felt bushings or some bearing with intentionally introduced friction (I think CLP675/685 have something similar) are less realistic in that regard and will have a higher upweight, despite the equivalency of the leverage.

Last edited by CyberGene; 04/09/20 06:47 AM.

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Re: Any idea's when a "MP12" may be release to us?
Tom Fort #2964965 04/09/20 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Fort
That may be true. But I also think an action that more closely mimics the teeter-totter/class 1 lever design of the grand piano keystick, and also incorporates a separate hammer design with sensors measuring hammer movement rather than key movement, will have an easier time trying to replicate all of the up weights, down weights, inertial resistance, etc that collectively make up the overall “feel” of a grand piano action.


Up weight, down weight, inertial resistance etc. are independent of the type of lever system used.

If the hammer and key have corresponding positions at the time of measurement, it doesn't matter which one is measured.

Last edited by johnstaf; 04/09/20 10:09 AM.
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by CajunJ - 07/12/20 09:10 AM
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