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Hi, I am a new member in this forum (thanks for having me here!!) I'd like to post a few questions. I used to play guitar and bass for +/- 10 years (I am 45 now) and I discovered my love for the piano 6 months ago. I have piano lessons (classical) every 14 days and since I have a musical background I seem to make good progress! ...another factor is trying to play 1-2 hours a day I guess...
My goal when starting the piano was clearly to play Jazz but I really like the classical stuff I am playing with my teacher. I know that I am lacking technique and experience in playing (my knowledge in jazz theory is much bigger due to my guitar and bass past) but from your experience : after how many years of classical piano and acquiring technique can I try to take Jazz lessons?
Another question I have is on the instrument itself. I read in an article that players say that piano x is good for ex. Bach...piano y more for Beethoven...and another piano clearly better for Jazz. Is that a matter of voicing the piano? Are certain brands better for Jazz than others? I ask this because when buying a piano in a near future (and assuming I'd like to play classical AND Jazz on it I'd prefer an allrounder)...what should I try to look for in a piano? ...I have the possibility to put a grand in my living room up to 2m15.
Thanks for your help!! Rob
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but from your experience : after how many years of classical piano and acquiring technique can I try to take Jazz lessons?
Start straight away, even if it is just some basic improvisations exercises. Of course proper jazz lessons are better. Another question I have is on the instrument itself. I read in an article that players say that piano x is good for ex. Bach...piano y more for Beethoven...and another piano clearly better for Jazz.
A Steinway D is good for classical or jazz. A good piano is a good piano. Of course it is a personal thing which piano you like but your choice is more likely going to be limited by what you can afford. A 25 year old Yamaha grand is likely to have the best value/quality ratio.
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after how many years of classical piano and acquiring technique can I try to take Jazz lessons? I think for jazz it's most important to acquire a decent chords technique, so you wouldn't struggle with every chord when you play. I'm not sure how much time it takes, it's probably individual, just wait until your 4-notes chords sound good without much effort. I ask this because when buying a piano in a near future (and assuming I'd like to play classical AND Jazz on it I'd prefer an allrounder)...what should I try to look for in a piano? beeboss is right, Steinway is the best allrounder, especially an American Steinway. Brighter pianos like Yamahas are often considered better for jazz. I think for jazz it's also very important for the lower register of the piano to blend seamlessly with the upper register. But your ears and your personal taste is what's most important in the end.
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When I take on a new student who is primarily coming from classical the first thing I work on with them is playing rootless voicings with added tension. This would be how to voice chords without using the root and adding tensions (9, 11, 13). I also show them how to interpret chord symbols at the same time. These two skills allow you to start reading from the Real Book and playing tunes that sound like a real jazz player. The time it takes to achieve these skills varies but is usually not less than a year to gain fluency. Once you have your chords ready to go you are set to go in a bunch of different directions, like adding improv, learning other voicing techniques like solo playing or two handed voicings etc. I offer a complete online course of study on all of these topics, please see www.jazzpianoonline.com. I have four completely free, full-featured lessons for you to try. As for the piano question: it looks like you can fit up to a 7' piano which gives you a lot of options. I would take advantage of every inch of that and look at these used Yamaha's: C3 (6'1"), C5 (6'5"), C6 (6'7"), or if you can fit it the C7 (7'6") which is the benchmark jazz piano. I just saw Rick Jones had one online that sounds really nice and is a great deal. Steinways, in my opinion, are of course very expensive (over priced imo) and very inconsistent especially the smaller instruments and don't come close to the reliability and stability of a Yamaha. (any technician will tell you this). Yes you can voice any piano to yield the sound you are looking for just make sure you are working with a top level technician before they do any voicing to your piano because an inexperienced tech can do real damage to your hammers.
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Hi Rsoby
I can't comment on the type of Piano, however as per Beeboss and Bill I agree there is no reason to delay starting to learn Jazz Piano. In fact I'd have thought that for most people the longer and more seriously you take studying classical, the harder it will be when you start trying to play Jazz Piano as well.
There are plenty of very good on-line Jazz Piano tutors/websites/Youtube channels, both free and paid for. I'd certainly recommend looking at Dave Frank's material, and the Open Studio guys are very interesting. I haven't looked at Bill's (above) material, but I'm sure he is also very good.
Of course if you get your own tutor, the above is irrelevant.
Cheers
Simon
Casio PX-S3000 Korg SV2S (73)
ABRSM Grade 7 distinction 2023. Decent blues/rock Pianist. Try to play Jazz Piano, but pretty rubbish. Studying ABRSM grade 8 now.
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I'm much older than you have same background of decades of Jazz guitar and bass, went to music school, but never played piano (sad about that now). I would say you don't have to do the classical thing first if not into it which was my case. I thought I should and tried the typical local piano teacher and the same books they use for everyone and it bored me to death. I tried to at least ask questions about bigger chords and fingering other scales or melodies and they dodged them. So I quit and went on my own for awhile, but realized I need someone to talk to that understood by background. I eventually found a good Jazz teacher willing to take a piano beginner because of my background. That is working well for me and I feel I'm making progress even though my body and brain aren't what they used to be.
So don't do the classical unless that interests you because being interested and motivated will do more for keeping you moving forward.
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From my experience I've been brought up playing music the Classical way as long as I can remember. Recently my piano teacher got our group class into playing pieces out of the "Simply Standards: 22 most requested songs" for easy piano book. These are arrangements of Jazz tunes but notated with the Bass Clef for 2-hand piano. Everybody in class were brought up in the Classical way and don't read off lead sheets and the book wasn't written in that format either.
The first thing the teacher told us to focus on is that certain pairs of notes with the same beat value are supposed to be played with the first note slightly longer & the second shorter to give a Swing feel. Otherwise we would all be playing the notes as written (set in stone) like a Classical piece. The last thing on our mind is to make a piece more original by playing the chords in the bass in different ways to sound original such as F-A-C-E in root position played as an A-C-E-F inversion. Even adding notes or playing certain chords as an arpeggio we would decide beforehand and insert the changes into the sheet music. The idea of playing music in an improvised way with the melody line by ear & adding appropriate chords along the way is foreign to us.
Some piano teachers like John Mortensen mentioned in his online videos that Classical music can be played in an improvised way by changing the Key & notes. Many people who are taught in the Classical tradition tend to play as written. Jazz is a different style of music that requires the performer to have a different mindset. Somebody like myself who was taught to play in a Classical way would likely play Jazz tunes from sheet music written with the Bass Clef and wouldn't embellish a piece along the way.
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Thanks for all the comments!! Seems I'll continue my classical journey (because to my surprise I REALLY like it and I feel that it brings my technique a step further) and start to work on chords... I tried to play around 3 note voicings a bit (left hand bass and right hand 3rd and 7th...adding the melody in the rh) and it works pretty well...
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At a bare minimum, two decades of the Russian method.
Find 660 of Harry's solo piano arrangements for educational purposes and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."
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At a bare minimum, two decades of the Russian method. No, 7 years on the instrument, 3 years of jazz. From my own experience.
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I wasn't really being serious. It is interesting that you come up with 7 years and 3 years. How do you come by that prescription? Shouldn't classical and jazz be learned somewhat at the same time?
Find 660 of Harry's solo piano arrangements for educational purposes and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."
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I wasn't really being serious. It is interesting that you come up with 7 years and 3 years. How do you come by that prescription? Shouldn't classical and jazz be learned somewhat at the same time? In Soviet Union in the early 60s? You're crazy? I was dragged to the KGB for organizing an unauthorized jam! 7 years of classical piano - a strong pianistic basis to study jazz with the expectation of a professional level. https://www.facebook.com/arkadiy.figlin/videos/1601752726644484/?fref=mentions
Last edited by Nahum; 04/13/20 03:34 PM.
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McCoy Tyner was once asked if he read music. He replied, "Yeah, but not enough to hurt me."
There is no right answer. There are successful jazz pianists like Keith Jarrett, Herbie Hancock, and Claude Bolling who had extensive classical training, while I believe Thelonius Monk had no classical training.
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According to T Monk's son: "He was a classically trained pianist and not a jazz musician from day one." Read here.
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I believe Thelonius Monk had no classical training. The name Thelonious Monk appears in the list of students at the Juilliard school. There is no right answer. There are successful jazz pianists like ..., and Claude Bolling who had extensive classical training, . Claude Bolling has a strong classical foundation that interferes with jazz.
Last edited by Nahum; 06/11/20 03:48 AM.
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I would describe it as Bolling have a different interest than pure jazz.
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Dave Brubeck's training is interesting. He had a degree in music composition from University of the Pacific in Stockton, California. From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_BrubeckLater, Brubeck was nearly expelled when one of his professors discovered that he could not read music on sight. Several of his professors came forward, arguing that his ability to write counterpoint and harmony more than compensated, and demonstrated his familiarity with music notation. The college was still afraid that it would cause a scandal, and agreed to let Brubeck graduate only after he had promised never to teach piano.
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How much classical training do u need to play jazz? None.
But why bypass the hundreds of years of keyboard music that comes from the classical tradition? It’s all fertile ground for anyone interested in jazz.
What piano to buy? Identify your budget for the size you seek. Yes, Steinways CAN be great. So can pianos by other top-tier manufacturers.
Learn more about pianos and how and why you might prefer one to another. Ultimately, the best piano is the one you want to come back to and play day after day. That MIGHT be a Steinway. It MIGHT be a Yamaha. It MIGHT be an instrument made by some other top-tier manufacturer. Or it might not.
The more you learn about playing the piano (classical and jazz) the better off you are. The more you know about how to pick a piano that’s to your taste the better off you are.
Thelonious Monk had classical training. So did many others. Many jazz pianists didn’t have classical training. In any case, find a teacher who you feel is really interested in helping YOU to play the piano. Someone who has enough breadth and depth to separate out all the major and minor paths you might traverse.
The more you know the better off you are. But the more you know how to put what you know into practice and actual use, the better better off you are. There is no one good way to learn but there are plenty of approaches that don’t leave you with requisite skill, knowledge, or ability.
When will I learn to post short, pithy, to-the-point comments? !!! Something I need to work on .... (among other things...).
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When will I learn to post short, pithy, to-the-point comments? !!! Something I need to work on . Mark, I envy you! How much classical training do u need to play jazz? None.
But why bypass the hundreds of years of keyboard music that comes from the classical tradition? It’s all fertile ground for anyone interested in jazz. . Honestly, I did not understand. If you contrast the piano and the violin, then their historical appearance and development differ fundamentally: the violin was the grandson of folk instruments that originated in Central Asia, the Byzantine Empire and the Middle East. The technique of playing these instruments varied, in accordance with the musical traditions of a particular region. I don't think anyone studied Kreutzer’s etudes , and I suspect that Friedrich Seitz’s student concerts didn’t play either. Pianoforte is a completely different story: a Eurocentric musical instrument that emerged at the end of the 17th century, influenced by the requirements of modern aesthetics, in which was involved the previously arisen belcanto, requiring legato and dynamic diversity. With the new instrument, it became easier to play the existing repertoire - on the one hand, on the other, it created an impetus for the stormy development of piano technique and the creation of an ocean of music specifically for it . The instrument spread throughout Europe, which inevitably led to the emergence of various pedagogical schools.At the same time, the piano has not become a common instrument in those regions where the (eastern) violin has taken root. The rapid continuous development of piano technology has turned it into a universal instrument for any type of music, with all the limitations of temperament, lack of vibrato, hard division by half tones and sound attenuation. However, the very basis of mastering the piano technique - the classical repertoire, has not disappeared. It is impossible to fully study the piano technique on jazz, Arabic music or the music of pygmies. The specificity of a jazz piano is that percussion ,horn and wind instruments are models for sound production, and to imitate them, mastery of the piano technique is required; and in order to master the technique, it is necessary to study the classical repertoire. History of jazz has already shown , whose music desirable to study by a future jazz pianist: Bach, Chopin, Brahms, Debussy, Scriabin, Bartok . Well, for the Fineshmeckers Schoenberg and Messien.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
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