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Hello. I have a problem with rubato. I mean I haven't had a teacher for several years now and don't quite understand where except romantic period music I can use it. Piano Covers? Should I even bother - it really puts me off playing piano - maybe I'm a perfectionist but I really don't know if you should use rubato like in everyphrase in the piece etc ...

For example does he use rubato here ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJX6AHsWa0Y

?

Do you guys think of where to put rubato before/ during learing a piece?

I’m probably quite peculiar— but I don’t decide at any point where to have rubato. I listen to the music when I play it, and the rubato fits itself in where my ears automatically decide, without conscious thought, it needs to go.

I think of rubato like the gentle movement of tree leaves in the wind— a gentle stirring of the branch based on the direction of the wind. So rubato moves the direction of the music without destroying the underlying beat

Ok, I’m weird 🙀

Yes, he does use rubato but it is subtle. Clap the beat while you listen to him and you will notice slight changes in tempo.

To identify where to put rubato, imagine a singer vocalizing the piano music. Pay attention to the phrase markings. Think of a tenor standing beneath his lover’s window pouring his heart out. He won’t sing “I-love-you”. He will sing “I looooove you.” Singers will take time to breathe usually after finishing a phrase. Try making the tiniest pause between phrases, as if you are taking a tiny sip of air. Singers might linger on a high note. They might slow down as the music ascends and speed up as it descends. It’s okay if you over emote at the beginning. You can refine it later.

I add rubato during my learning of the piece and I refine it afterwards. I do it instinctively at first but am very deliberate about it when I am polishing the piece. I want to engage and move the listener without overdoing it. For me this most enjoyable part of being a musician.

To be frank, for that kind of music, you don't need to bother with rubato. You'll find that performers playing for a soundtrack to a movie actually have to play in strict time most - if not all - of the time, with the conductor conducting to a 'click track' via headphones. (Of course, you have much more leeway when you play the music on a piano.)

Not so in real classical music, where rubato is part and parcel of expressive music-making.

Does romantic pieces have at least a few bars in strict time? I can hear it is used all the time throughout pieces.

I cannot hear rubato in the links I've sent though

The fact that you hear rubato “all the time, throughout pieces” makes me wonder if you understand what rubato is. I found this in an online dictionary: “rubato is the temporary disregard of strict tempo to allow and expressive quickening or slackening, usually without altering the overall piece.” A good musician creates a scaffold of strict rhythm and tempo for the majority of the piece to give it cohesiveness and structure. Rubato must be used sparingly. Additionally, there is a place for rubato in every era and genre of music.

I am sorry you do not hear the rubato in the first piece but this indicates to me that you need to train your ear. Learning to hear rubato in music played by others will lead to knowing how much rubato to use in your own music. Opera may not be your cup of tea, but it is IMO, the best and fastest way to develop your ear. Another idea is listen to music while you pretend to conduct it.

have a look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4YSsU1xuI

or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAWCSDbt2rQ

In. op9 no.1 Nocturne by Chopin most Artists playing it keep on speeding up and slowing down..... It is really hard to hear a part with a strict tempo.

Because Chopin uses a lot of free flowing cadenza like passages that require rubato to sound good.

If you don't like rubato I suggest that you listen to Schumann. He wrote very few cadenzas and his music does not benefit much from a lot of rubato.

I do like it I mean I am just trying to figure out how much should be put in a given piece. Let's say I am attempting to learn Chopin's No1 OP9 Nocturne. How do I know where I should put it ? Or Fur Elise or Moonlight Sonata ?

I think for an intermediate level player, you go with your instinct and do what you instinctively feel right to do. Only semi-professional or above players need to or have the ability to consciously planed for their rubatos. Otherwise you are worrying too much for nothing.

As others have suggested, it's not so much a question of "knowing" but of "feeling" where rubato is appropriate. This is not something that can be prescribed as much as it can be learned over time spent listening intently to performances and understanding what the performer is conveying by use of rubato.

I go back to Deborah's suggestion that listening to what opera singers do in executing a vocal line can be particularly revealing about the use of rubato. Indeed, speaking of Chopin, he recommended that his students attend opera to better understand the style of opera that so much influenced him, bel canto, exemplified in the operas of Bellini, Donizetti, Rossini and early Verdi, among others. You needn't listen to complete operas; I know that you can find individual arias on Youtube that can exemplify not only the use of rubato, but also the sense of "breathing" at the end of a phrase which is as important in piano music as it is in singing.

But if opera is not to your liking, or if you don't understand it enough to appreciate it, then listening to other works - the Romantic era might be a good place to start - and imagining conducting the works as you listen to them might help you understand the placement of rubato and how much of it is appropriate in any given piece or style of music.

Regards,

Rubato should never be predetermined.

I really don't understand your post. I completely agree with newport that advanced players consciously plan their rubatos to ensure they are appropriate and tasteful. There is a certain amount of instinct and talent involved, but advanced players will think about every single note in a piece including studying the harmonic structure. Making on-the-spot expressive changes is risky.

I do not practice rubato and it very well might change somewhat with every performance. I just listen.
I cannot understand why this would be risky

My teacher would not agree with you and he is quite a scholar when it comes to piano music. He coached me on the 3rd movement of the Schumann C major fantasy and he said Schumann expected a lot of rubato and artistic freedom. Much of it is not actually written out but it is implied.

It is risky to make changes in your music during a performance because it invites memory lapses and wrong notes.

This over-analytical habit of planning every nuance of a performance is a consequence of classical music becoming an academic tradition rather than remaining a contemporary art form. I'm not complaining; it was bound to happen, but I promise nobody thought this way in the old days. The dirty little secret is that there is really only good playing and bad playing, and you cannot achieve the former by dictating expression at a quantum level (see almost every "masterclass"). If you're talking about measuring general expressive changes, such as a ritenuto or an accelerando, both of which would be integral to any given passage when notated by the composer, then of course, but to micromanage one's performance is not only futile but against the very essence of music itself. When one has decided in advance how they will feel in the future, they've already messed up.

My problem is that when I listen to many artists playing Chopin i hear rubato in almost every bar... or many many phrases at least. Listen to rubinstein playing op9 no1 nocturne. The whole 1 st page is all big rubato... https://youtu.be/ZtIW2r1EalM


How do you practice a new piece? You play it slow in a strict rhythm and then when it's mastered you just just play it?

If there are any professional pianists following this thread, I'd be interested in hearing your opinions. (BTW my teacher is a pro).

I have discussed performance with my teacher, who has a masters in piano performance from one of the big conservatories. She does not extensively plan performances but uses her judgement and the audience’s reception when performing to refine the interpretation.