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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacDaddyGator #2962709 04/01/20 06:01 PM
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Hello everyone. Just wanted I'm glad we made it by page 2 (the streak continues!) grin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB9tqkPKdeU&t=7m25s



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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
Gombessa #2962712 04/01/20 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Hello everyone. Just wanted I'm glad we made it by page 2 (the streak continues!) grin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB9tqkPKdeU&t=7m25s


Well, not that I want to argue with you but the number of pages depends on posts per page you configure in your user panel 🤣

I’ve use the biggest possible number because it always makes me feel accomplished that I can argue on the very first page! 💪🏻


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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacDaddyGator #2962716 04/01/20 06:16 PM
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Honestly you're talking about two pianos of virtually the same quality, with virtually the same quality of action and sound. I personally prefer the Yamaha's sound, I really like the Bösendorfer sample, and of course you can customise the sound as you can on all of them. It's just a preference. I like the NWX action, it feels fairly close to a piano in terms of weight, the point of sound is in the right place, and I have no problem controlling the sound through the touch. I'm sure if I played the Kawai I'd feel the same about it. In Scotland I also have a Roland HP-603 and I feel the same about it. All of the digital pianos from the big three are pretty much the same level of quality - they're all as good as each other, but it really just depends what you prefer.

Since you can't play in person you might want to listen online. If you want to hear a P515 through it's own speakers and picked up through an iPhone (worst case scenario recording) then listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTEIzXv3zbM

Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacDaddyGator #2962726 04/01/20 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MacDaddyGator
Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by BachToTheFuture
The ES8 is too light if you need to play on a real acoustic piano. You will have to work a little to adapt yourself.
That's what I am doing with my N1X now.



The only cool thing in with P-515 is the USB audio interface. I'm not sure about the speakers as I have never played them through speakers.


How is the USB audio interface different? I thought they were pretty much the same. Please tell me what I am missing.

Additionally, In response to Ragtime, I already have an acoustic, but it is old and not fun to play. I want a DP so I can gig with it from time to time. I am more of a singer, but I want to be able to pull the piano out and sing a song or two playing the piano. As for money, I have set my budget at approximately $2,000.


The difference is that the Yamaha P-515 has a USB Audio interface and the ES8 doesn’t. I think Yamaha is the only brand that offers it in its pianos at the moment, someone can correct me if I’m wrong.

With the P-515 you only need one usb cable to transmit both MIDI signal and audio at the same time. It’s perfect if you want to use it with VST for example. With the ES8 you will also need a analog audio cable if you want to get the audio back to the piano.

I’m using my p-515 with different practice apps so it’s super nice only needing the one USB-cable for everything.

Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
CyberGene #2962735 04/01/20 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene

Well, not that I want to argue with you but the number of pages depends on posts per page you configure in your user panel 🤣

I’ve use the biggest possible number because it always makes me feel accomplished that I can argue on the very first page! 💪🏻


Oh, I knew I'd get called on that one! I also use the most posts per page, which is why my post ended up at the top of page 3 smile


Originally Posted by Boboulus

The difference is that the Yamaha P-515 has a USB Audio interface and the ES8 doesn’t. I think Yamaha is the only brand that offers it in its pianos at the moment, someone can correct me if I’m wrong.


I think it depends on the instrument. Dexibell has been offering a USB audio interface for a while, and Roland has it on some of their DPs/synths, including the RD-2000. But it's not super-common yet (Kawai has yet to include it even on their most recent CA-79/99) and Yamaha does seem to be leading the charge with making it a standard on all their new DPs.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
CyberGene #2962741 04/01/20 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
P515 feels heavier than ES8. I agree with that.

Notch position can change leverage ratio hence weight. If we assume they have equally long keys, equally long underlevers (the secondary ones) and equal mass of the hammers then yes, the longer notch to pivot will make the action heavier. But you don’t know the parameters either. Weight can come from many other parameters in the system, that’s what I’m saying.

You’re making it as though the heavier action is worse. It’s a matter of preference first. And then there are two types of “heavy”: static heavy and dynamic heavy. Downweight isn’t everything. And then how difficult it is to play towards pivot is not determined by that notch position. I showed you an equivalence example. If both actions are made with the same static weight regardless of notch position (which is possible as I demonstrated), then how hard it is to play near pivot depends only on the key/pivot length

You just try to find a justification to praise Kawai and bash Yamaha.

I’d say both are great instruments. Heavy or light, let’s just leave people decide what is good and what’s not.


No not at all.

What I said is that the closer you get to the fulcrum of NWX the heavier the action becomes compared to RHIII. In a grand action, this heaviness is relatively small due to the long levers (arms) in general. So if Yamaha is modeling the folded action properly this shouldn't be so obvious.

I also mentioned that RHIII has "counterweights". I haven't found any information about counterweights in NWX. So counterweights can also make it more balanced to play.

There are many parameters and I can't write a math formula for it as it depends on the weights, length of the arms and keys etc. But regardless of the dynamics, if we consider everything to be the same (weights and material) RHIII has a nicer touch under my fingers. Especially when I play the black keys.

It's also nicer if you play other instruments, like Organ.

And I sincerely believe that RHIII is a better action compared to NWX. NWX seems to be Yamaha CP-1's NW-Stage action with the escapement forced to exist in it.


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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacDaddyGator #2962759 04/01/20 10:02 PM
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I tried both, liked the ES8 better. The speakers work fine, and I felt more connection to the sound than with the Yamaha. I've even played jazz and chamber music gigs with the internal speakers alone. The Yamaha had a weird artificial ringing that bothered me. Your mileage may vary, of course.


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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
Abdol #2962773 04/01/20 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol

I also mentioned that RHIII has "counterweights". I haven't found any information about counterweights in NWX. So counterweights can also make it more balanced to play.


Some versions of NWX have counterweights (only on the CLP-585 AFAIK). Just curious if you've seen the counterweights on the RHIII. When I last opened my MP11, I looked at the counterweights on the Grand Feel 1 and they were a bit underwhelming (smallish wood screws, not anything like the lead slugs in acoustics). I've wondered how much of a difference they make (and I certainly couldn't tell the weight difference between the keys with counterweights and the one without).

Originally Posted by Abdol
NWX seems to be Yamaha CP-1's NW-Stage action with the escapement forced to exist in it.


I don't think this is entirely fair or accurate. Additional differences between NWX and NW-Stage is that NWX is graded. Also, I believe NW-Stage was two-sensor, and NWX is triple sensor.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
Abdol #2962819 04/02/20 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
What I said is that the closer you get to the fulcrum of NWX the heavier the action becomes compared to RHIII.

OK, I'm not saying that's not true, but if that statement is based only on the notch position, then that's not true. The rate at which the key becomes heavier towards the fulcrum is only depending on the length of the key between the tip and the fulcrum. Nothing else. It's a simple principle of ratios, regardless of number of levers under the key (or after, in the case of straight key actions), the absolute weight of the hammer, etc. Whatever mechanical system you come up with, provided you don't change ratios of levers and weights, it can be simplified to a simple single lever of class 1. And since the only variable thing here is your finger and where on the key you press it, the ratio at which the key becomes heavier towards the fulcrum is dependent only on that lever part length. As simple as that. Yes, the P515 action may be heavier in absolute terms, but the ratio of how the weight changes towards the fulcrum will be the same as the lighter ES8 provided their pivot lengths are the same. That ratio won't depend on where the underside notch is and how many (and what types) of levers and weights there are under the key. I think they look similar in pivot length, so that ratio you're talking about will theoretically be the same. Of course, the one in Yamaha P515 might be shorter which would explain what you say. But have you measured it? Are you 100% sure? Is it possible that you're biased? smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 04/02/20 06:13 AM.

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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
Abdol #2962822 04/02/20 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Abdol


What I said is that the closer you get to the fulcrum of NWX the heavier the action becomes compared to RHIII. In a grand action, this heaviness is relatively small due to the long levers (arms) in general. So if Yamaha is modeling the folded action properly this shouldn't be so obvious.

I also mentioned that RHIII has "counterweights". I haven't found any information about counterweights in NWX. So counterweights can also make it more balanced to play.

There are many parameters and I can't write a math formula for it as it depends on the weights, length of the arms and keys etc. But regardless of the dynamics, if we consider everything to be the same (weights and material) RHIII has a nicer touch under my fingers. Especially when I play the black keys.

It's also nicer if you play other instruments, like Organ.

And I sincerely believe that RHIII is a better action compared to NWX. NWX seems to be Yamaha CP-1's NW-Stage action with the escapement forced to exist in it.


One needs only to examine the pedigree of these things. You know, the breeding. (sniff)
RHll is nothing more than a junior non-commissioned officer! Tried in battle, but found to be a bit flaky at times. RHlll is, at this stage a conjecture; time will tell. It may be made of sterner stuff now; better by far to let others take that risk.
Of course, by comparison (if one desires to be so foolish) the NWX ancestry is impeccable! It would be, wouldn't it? Derived and developed from GH by the word's leading Piano manufacturer over many, many years, how could it possibly be otherwise? it is the Colonel-in-Chief of piano actions. Tried, tested by millions. Definitely a chip of the old block (snort, chortle chortle)
Rumour has it that it is being developed for use on acoustic grand pianos . . .



Last edited by peterws; 04/02/20 06:15 AM.

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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacDaddyGator #2962853 04/02/20 08:58 AM
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I see the quarantine is starting to bite now Pete...


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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
CyberGene #2962856 04/02/20 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Is it possible that you're biased? smile


Possible!?

There is never a wasted opportunity for him to put the boot into Yamaha with gratuitous venom and mostly false nonsense. We can all see through it. Certainly one of the least credible (and most vexatious) posters on here in my opinion.


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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacDaddyGator #2962862 04/02/20 09:15 AM
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peterws is vexatious? I don't think so. I find him to be an enless source of fun (and often silliness).
That's surely to be expected from a retired crematorium organist.

Lots of tongue-in-check nonsense. Plenty of amusement.

That might be considered trolling ... but it's done in a gentle and enjoyable way.

Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacMacMac #2962867 04/02/20 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
peterws is vexatious? I don't think so. I find him to be an enless source of fun (and often silliness).
That's surely to be expected from a retired crematorium organist.

Lots of tongue-in-check nonsense. Plenty of amusement.

That might be considered trolling ... but it's done in a gentle and enjoyable way.

+1

Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacMacMac #2962890 04/02/20 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
peterws is vexatious? I don't think so. I find him to be an enless source of fun (and often silliness).
That's surely to be expected from a retired crematorium organist.

Lots of tongue-in-check nonsense. Plenty of amusement.

That might be considered trolling ... but it's done in a gentle and enjoyable way.


I totally agree. I was referring to Abdol, who CG suggested might be biased! Peter is almost a national treasure. Almost.


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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacDaddyGator #2962902 04/02/20 10:51 AM
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I want just to add that I suspect that cabinet-style Kawai DPs with RHIII action are heavier compared to slab pianos with the same action.

For example I measured my CN37 and compared with data from other instruments:
Code
          	Downweight(g)		Upweight(g)
		low  | mid  | high |	for middle C 
		-----+------+------+------------------
Yamaha CP88	102  |  98  |  90  |	  55
Steinway D Grand 98  |	96  |  71  |	  35
Kawai VPC-1	102  |  90  |  86  |      47	    
Kawai SK7 Grand	 91  |  90  |  86  |	  44
Kawai CN37	107  |  89  |  79  |	  37.5	    <-- RHIII (my DP)
Roland FP10	 98  |  86  |  82  |	  43
Yamaha P-515	 94  |  86  |  78  |	  67
Kawai NV10	106  |  78  |  63  |      35
Kawai ES8	 94  |  78  |  74  |      43	    <-- RHIII
Kawai MP7SE	 94  |  78  |  71  |	  47	    <-- RHIII
Roland FP90	 82  |  78  |  78  |	  51
Casio PX-S1000	 74  |  74  |  63  |	  59
Yamaha N1X	 94  |  71  |  63  |	  24
Kawai MP11SE	 82  |  71  |  67  |	  39
Yamaha P-125	 78  |  71  |  67  |	  43
Kawai ES110	 78  |  67  |  59  |	  47
Yamaha NU1X	 63  |  55  |  55  |	  27

In the above table, 'low' means the leftmost key, 'mid' is the middle C, and 'high' is the rightmost key.

So, or my CN37 is an irregular unit (i.e. it's heavier than the others CN37/39 on the market), or the cabinet-style DPs of the Kawai CN series have something different that make them heavier than the slabs with same action (maybe some slightly heavier hammers?).

Anyway, what would scare me, from the above data, is the big upweight of the P-515. That means that to keep a key pressed you'll experience more fatigue in your fingers. The Yamaha N1X and NU1X are very light regarding this aspect.

Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacDaddyGator #2962904 04/02/20 10:53 AM
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Quote
That's surely to be expected from a retired crematorium organist.


Now wonder why Pete is the way he is. All this time he was playing his heart out and no applause wink


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
EPW #2962905 04/02/20 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by EPW
Quote
That's surely to be expected from a retired crematorium organist.


Now wonder why Pete is the way he is. All this time he was playing his heart out and no applause wink

Man, I laughed my a** out 🤣 And it’s not funny 😢


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Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
MacDaddyGator #2962912 04/02/20 11:25 AM
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Just measured my ES8 with coins and a food scale.
On middle C, I found:

Touchweight: 50g
Downweight (to barely sound a note): 80g
Upweight: 37g

Re: Yamaha P515 v. Kawai Es8
magicpiano #2962918 04/02/20 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
I want just to add that I suspect that cabinet-style Kawai DPs with RHIII action are heavier compared to slab pianos with the same action.

For example I measured my CN37 and compared with data from other instruments:
Code
          	Downweight(g)		Upweight(g)
		low  | mid  | high |	for middle C 
		-----+------+------+------------------
Yamaha CP88	102  |  98  |  90  |	  55
Steinway D Grand 98  |	96  |  71  |	  35
Kawai VPC-1	102  |  90  |  86  |      47	    
Kawai SK7 Grand	 91  |  90  |  86  |	  44
Kawai CN37	107  |  89  |  79  |	  37.5	    <-- RHIII (my DP)
Roland FP10	 98  |  86  |  82  |	  43
Yamaha P-515	 94  |  86  |  78  |	  67
Kawai NV10	106  |  78  |  63  |      35
Kawai ES8	 94  |  78  |  74  |      43	    <-- RHIII
Kawai MP7SE	 94  |  78  |  71  |	  47	    <-- RHIII
Roland FP90	 82  |  78  |  78  |	  51
Casio PX-S1000	 74  |  74  |  63  |	  59
Yamaha N1X	 94  |  71  |  63  |	  24
Kawai MP11SE	 82  |  71  |  67  |	  39
Yamaha P-125	 78  |  71  |  67  |	  43
Kawai ES110	 78  |  67  |  59  |	  47
Yamaha NU1X	 63  |  55  |  55  |	  27

In the above table, 'low' means the leftmost key, 'mid' is the middle C, and 'high' is the rightmost key.

So, or my CN37 is an irregular unit (i.e. it's heavier than the others CN37/39 on the market), or the cabinet-style DPs of the Kawai CN series have something different that make them heavier than the slabs with same action (maybe some slightly heavier hammers?).

Anyway, what would scare me, from the above data, is the big upweight of the P-515. That means that to keep a key pressed you'll experience more fatigue in your fingers. The Yamaha N1X and NU1X are very light regarding this aspect.


I don't know where you got these measurements from, but they're probably not done properly

when you measuring grand or upright, first you must hold de damper pedal during measurement, second if there is lot of STATIC friction in action, measurement will not be accurate.
For me only data for yamaha NU1X seems acurate

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