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Roland PHA-4 Standard
#2962810 04/02/20 05:09 AM
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It has been discussed already to some extent, but I could not find any conclusion or evidence. Only some opinions... and contradictions wink

I see the same key action: "PHA-4 Standard Keyboard: with Escapement and Ivory Feel" on very different pianos like the new RD-88, FP-10, FP-60, new A88 mkII etc.
I wonder is it really exact the same action? I am interested mainly in the key length to pivot, but would love to hear if there are also other differences. Some Roland players here? Could you share pictures of your actions and measure the key length? That would finally clear the intransparency issue smile - which unfortunately Roland is really not interested to clear.
I think every customer will benefit and we would have a real answer finally.

Or maybe, could someone from Roland clarify that please? What is the key length? Some side view schematic - look at Kawai wink ? And is it the same on all the pianos with the action mentioned in the specs?
That helps make the overview more transparent.

PS. I tried directly with Roland already, but got no answer on the web site and on the fb just a friendly response with no relevant content wink

Last edited by memtrix; 04/02/20 05:17 AM.
Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2962815 04/02/20 05:52 AM
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I found one video of Roland FP-30 action...


Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2962849 04/02/20 08:47 AM
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Roland is known for changing things behind the scenes but reusing the same name. So it's entirely possible that an action line has had "running changes" made to its design. The only way to know is to take it apart and compare (or check the service manual for different part numbers).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2962955 04/02/20 01:32 PM
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There seems to be a dearth of sectional/diagramatic keyboard actions on the internet now. I believe PH 4, or PHA 4 was that fitted to Rolands HP 3xx and 5XX or at least to the better ones. They called one "Concert" before introducing the PH50 and now they have PH4 "Standard" which has a shorter pivot, being based on the older Ivory "G" keyboard.
Then was the PH4 "S" fitted to the non Gloss finished DP90.
They all played well, were hard bottoming and unfortunately, very noisy.
Too, they still have many constructional aspects in common.


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Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2962959 04/02/20 01:40 PM
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What are "sectional/diagramatic keyboard actions" ?

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
peterws #2962965 04/02/20 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by peterws
They all played well, were hard bottoming and unfortunately, very noisy.
Too, they still have many constructional aspects in common.


Huh, didn't you come out fighting a few months back when I said I found Roland actions can get noisy? smile

And don't forget the PHA-IV "Premium" variant as well (between the unnamed, Concert and Premium, I think some of the differences include wood-colored side panels on the white keys).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
Gombessa #2962967 04/02/20 01:55 PM
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After watching the video again, I think it seems quite impossible that FP-10 and FP-30 share the same action.
Tthe action, i.e. the keys length, is the same length as the entire depth of the casing of the FP-30 (284 mm). At least so it looks from the video perspective.
Depth of the FP-10 is 258 mm.
So if there is not something tricky about the casing form, the FP-10 action must be shorter frown

Roland could make live easier and name that specs including some diagrams wink

Now to be sure, I have to hope some FP-10 player will be so kind and share pictures of his action... Anyone there smile ?

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
Gombessa #2962972 04/02/20 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa


And don't forget the PHA-IV "Premium" variant as well (between the unnamed, Concert and Premium, I think some of the differences include wood-colored side panels on the white keys).


yeah, this is not really transparent and I personally see that Roland's willingly produced confusion, that is quite disrespectful to the customer.
Roland writes in the specs of all these pianos exact the same action, which seems possibly not true.

Beside the idea of being told not the whole truth by Roland, for me it is a practical issue too.
I want only the action (use software sounds only anyway). So if the action of the FP-10 is the same as FP-60, FP-30, RD-88 and A-88 MKII, I will be happy to get that FP-10.
But I need some reliable information, and try to avoid ordering, opening the casing and returning.
Telling the truth, that entire Roland's marketing hocus-pocus slowly drives me toward Korg D1 or Kawai ES110.These two seems more transparent..

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2962976 04/02/20 02:21 PM
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It all sounds fishy ... but I'd suggest that it need not matter.
Just judge a piano using fingers and ears.
No specs need be considered. None at all.

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2962989 04/02/20 02:55 PM
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I can’t help you with tech specs etc, however having redeveloped PHA-50 with a longer pivot, they have given it a completely different name “Grand Hybrid”. (ie renaming it suggests that if it is different in some way).

So... hopefully that’s a clue.

Also, sometimes things look very similar (or are based on an older version)... ie Ivory Feel G isn’t particularly nice however people do seem to like PHA-4 more.

BUT who knows.


Learning to play. Consciously incompetent, which apparently is a good starting point. smirk
Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
MacMacMac #2962992 04/02/20 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It all sounds fishy ... but I'd suggest that it need not matter.
Just judge a piano using fingers and ears.
No specs need be considered. None at all.


definitely true smile
just sometimes you are in the remote location, far from a big supplier and it makes quite no sense to order, ship and return 5 pianos to choose one laugh

but I agree completely. it is the only sure way, to play them in person.

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2962999 04/02/20 03:14 PM
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It would cost Roland more to produce several slightly different variants of the PHA4 Standard.

What financial benefit would they receive from that to overcome the added cost?

None. You are overcomplicating a simple thing with all these "conspiracy theories". 😉

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2963012 04/02/20 03:40 PM
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mmmm, like the Casio privia, since it's got 3 sensors, it's a perfect candidate to buy 2nd hand, lengthen the keys and counterweights with some wood, customise it, and voila, you have longer pivot, and DIY VPC-2.

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
clothearednincompo #2963030 04/02/20 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
It would cost Roland more to produce several slightly different variants of the PHA4 Standard.

What financial benefit would they receive from that to overcome the added cost?

None. You are overcomplicating a simple thing with all these "conspiracy theories". 😉


Re: running changes, I was thinking more along the lines of post-release discovery of problems--weak joints, parts that slip/rub due to manufacturing tolerance and assembly variance, etc. Over the lifetime of an action series (5-10+ years for service parts and calls), this could add up, and it may be worth making minor changes to be rolled into the manufacturing line, without introducing a new brand name.

Yamaha's been using the GHS and GH actions for what, over 2 decades now? Are they *exactly* the same as they were when first introduced? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if they've silently fixed common issues such as thin plastic hinge flaps that cause keys to break.

However, I don't think it's likely we're talking about secret, undisclosed use of an entirely different action that they're branding as the same thing (though Roland DOES do this frequently with their sound engines).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2963032 04/02/20 04:41 PM
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Yes, of course changes over time are possible and do sometimes happen.

And if one doesn't find "naked pictures" of an FP-10 then one can try to find spare part keys for the FP-10 and the FP-30 and see if they have the same part number. (Without purchasing of course)

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
clothearednincompo #2963174 04/03/20 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
None. You are overcomplicating a simple thing with all these "conspiracy theories". 😉


Perhaps. But after many times I have been lied to with the marketing blah-blah, like renaming same old stuff as "all new", deluded with hocus-pocus specs etc. I am quite sure all the industry is cheating somewhere wink
So just try not to fall into the trap again. Btw. the industry could simple make it transparent. Service manuals for everything and honest marketing without all the traps.
Why are the service manuals not public for the customer? In the year 2020 - Why do we have NOT all the specs regarding sample, software etc. in the digital pianos? We get only some marketing bubbles about it.
If it would be all honest, there would be no reason for hiding this information wink

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
pold #2963183 04/03/20 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by pold
mmmm, like the Casio privia, since it's got 3 sensors, it's a perfect candidate to buy 2nd hand, lengthen the keys and counterweights with some wood, customise it, and voila, you have longer pivot, and DIY VPC-2.


The key dip would be too large, and the 3rd sensor would be triggered farther from the bottom of the key travel. The action would probably be too light as well, as the the extra wood would be the same as a counterweight.

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2963188 04/03/20 06:48 AM
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There are no quick fixes -at least that I've come across. grin

Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
johnstaf #2963207 04/03/20 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by pold
mmmm, like the Casio privia, since it's got 3 sensors, it's a perfect candidate to buy 2nd hand, lengthen the keys and counterweights with some wood, customise it, and voila, you have longer pivot, and DIY VPC-2.


The key dip would be too large, and the 3rd sensor would be triggered farther from the bottom of the key travel. The action would probably be too light as well, as the the extra wood would be the same as a counterweight.


obviously you would have to fine tune it the way you like, adding weight (screws or bolts) to the counterweight, and for the key dip it's corrected simply by making the wooden bottom a bit higher. You would also have to cut the last chunk of plastic in the case, so you can extend it.

Last edited by pold; 04/03/20 08:38 AM.
Re: Roland PHA-4 Standard
memtrix #2963215 04/03/20 08:54 AM
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If you want keys longer than a Casio, just buy a cheap Medeli with their triple-sensor, escape-simulation, ivory-feel K8 action. Throw away (sell on eBay) the parts you don't need and just keep the action, the pedals and the MIDI out socket. 😀

(Or buy a decent factory made MIDI controller. Obviously.)

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