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Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Ragtime2k #2960034 03/24/20 11:26 AM
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….downsides: toy-like, cheap-looking. Thin cable won't take a lot of yanking but I'm careful with them and not bothered by the cosmetics.

Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Abdol #2960041 03/24/20 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Abdol
Beyerdynamic DT770PRO


I see that those come in a variety of impedances (32/80/250 ohms). I'd assume the 32 ohms model is the way to go, unless you have a headphone amp? 80 ohms is getting up there. Does the impedance have an impact on the sound quality, or just determine the source it is best used with to accommodate a wide range of uses?

Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Ragtime2k #2960079 03/24/20 03:15 PM
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Hi Ragtime2k & everybody,

This might sound unusual advice; however...

If you can't afford to spend £150-200 on a set of e.g., Audio Technica ATH-MSR7b's (one of the best closed can equivalents of the neutral sounding Sennheiser HD600's that many here own or have owned), and your budget is £20 to £50, consider a cheap pair of Sony earbuds.

e.g., https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00DTSGWUW/ref=pe_3187911_189395841_TE_3p_dp_1

I brought an Xperia XA1 about 5 years ago. It came with a cheap pair of headphones. They eventually broke from over-use. However, I couldn't repurchase them as too much time had passed. Their replacements (above) were significantly better. My Dad happened to purchase the ATH_MSR7 original cans around the same time after lots of research. My reaction to comparing them was: well the ATH MSR7's do sound better just, but considering the expense, there is not a lot in it. I had researched the Audio Technica's and seen many YouTube videos saying that the MSR7's were a step up from the ATH-m50x's which many people here have brought and thought were decent for the price, and for neutral cans, brilliant value.

I think to get anything seriously better, you're looking at a spend of about £250 to £350 minimum, especially if you want decent open-backed OTE cans.
I played on some Sennheiser HD650's at Dawson's in Manchester. I took them all around the store trying them on many pianos. They were nice but I would say that virtually every pair of headphones from £100 to £1800 that I've tried, none were as good a value for money as my current Sony in-ear cheap headphones.They are currently going for around £6.99 in the link.

As for good value for money:
Try the Grado SR80e: these have a nice reputation.

Here is my *.xlsx comparison of headphones under £150. It's a bit old now, but no doubt most of these will have been directly replaced:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B47WxO68oUMRbDdtN1lkcmhJajQ/view?usp=sharing

Kind regards,

Doug.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Ragtime2k #2960081 03/24/20 03:37 PM
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Low impedance heaphones are theoretically easier to drive loud, but harder to drive properly. If your source has high output impedance and you use low impedance headphones, you can experience some uncontrolled bass boost etc.


Ars non habet osorem nisi ignorantem
Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Ragtime2k #2960101 03/24/20 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ragtime2k
ok, I tried several headphones that I had, mostly cheap ones, and there was a day and night difference in sound quality, between them.

Now I'm using a pair of JVC HA-S160-B, the black ones. They do sound good but I'm afraid their frequency response, 12hz to 24Khz, 32ohm, although very good for cd-music listening, might be a little too high when it comes to a digital piano.

I feel that the bass frequencies are a tad too pumped up. The high are ok, although, in some rare cases, they tend to be (but... just a shade) kind of "sibilant", in the upper octaves.

I went and checked out for some kind of headphones supposedly good to use with a DP, like, for instance, the Yamaha HPH-100 (and HPH50), which are in the price range that suits me.

The web page states they are specifically designed for use with a digital piano.

Both them have a frequency response from 20hz to 20Khz, much narrower than the JVC I have.

The HPH-50 has a 32 ohm impedance, same as my JVC, while the HPH-100 has 48 ohm.

All of them have a circa 100 db of gain.

Somebody suggested me the Samson SR850, apparently the best bang for the buck nowadays. They go 10hz to 30Khz (that's a huge frequency response!) and their impedance is 32 ohm.

Also, the AKG K240 STUDIO, seem to be very good, on paper: 15hz - 25Khz, 55 ohm, 91db.

So there are many options and it's not easy to choose between them.

So far, it would seem that the best results I have is with my cell phone ear buds... laugh

I wish there were something "specifically designed" to perform a the best with the MP7SE or, generally, Kawai pianos but, so far, I couldn't find any, while Yamaha offers several options (no idea whether or not they are worth of any consideration)

I'm going crazy: any hints?
(besides getting a good psychiatrist, of course...) crazy


The answer depends on whether you are using them for practice and playing for yourself or for recording. If for recording, flat response is very important so that the feedback of the sound into your playing so that shaping the dynamics to sound the way you want is reflected in the recording as you heard it on the monitors, as closely as possible. I don’t use headphones for monitoring much, but Sony MDR-7506 are my go to cans for that. Perfectly linear? Of course not. But recording studios buy them by the case. I don’t have the capability at present to establish quantitatively that some other headphones are more accurate, and I probably can’t afford or would be unwilling to pay for ones that are. The MDR-7506 is a good reference point.

If you are buying headphones to use for practice and playing for yourself, then whatever combination of comfort, cost, and sound that you enjoy is all that matters. Especially inaccurate ones theoretically might create some issues with translation of practice sessions to an accounting piano, but I am skeptical that will be an issue for anything you enjoy using— no more an issue than translation of practice from one acoustic piano to another.

You could get the SoundID app from Sonarworks and then choose a headphone from their supported list based on comfort, and use SoundID for equalization profiles:

https://www.sound.id/faq/

I have not used SoundID, and have no idea if it works as well as advertised.


Login name is a tribute to Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck.
Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
AlphaBravoCharlie #2960102 03/24/20 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
Low impedance heaphones are theoretically easier to drive loud, but harder to drive properly. If your source has high output impedance and you use low impedance headphones, you can experience some uncontrolled bass boost etc.


According to Kawai, the MP7SE can comfortably drive upto 150 ohm set of cans without benefiting from a headphone amp. For instance, while you might get an OK sound with 300 ohm cans, a good headphone amp would greatly benefit the sound. So I guess the MP7 SE can handle most cans available for a reasonable cost. The HD600's aside.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Doug M. #2960197 03/25/20 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by AlphaBravoCharlie
Low impedance heaphones are theoretically easier to drive loud, but harder to drive properly. If your source has high output impedance and you use low impedance headphones, you can experience some uncontrolled bass boost etc.


According to Kawai, the MP7SE can comfortably drive upto 150 ohm set of cans without benefiting from a headphone amp. For instance, while you might get an OK sound with 300 ohm cans, a good headphone amp would greatly benefit the sound. So I guess the MP7 SE can handle most cans available for a reasonable cost. The HD600's aside.


Headphone impedance itself is not the only parameter to be considered - db sensitivity is as well important, if we talk about volume level. What I'm saying in me previous post is that not-so-high-quality amplifiers, usually those 'built-in' in stage pianos, might be able to give decent volume even on high impedance headphones, but because of their output impedance, they can color the sound slightly. Good article with measurments about that topic: Impedance. This is not just theory. I've tested it with my 32Ohm headphones using 2 separate amplifiers: one with high output impedance (47Ohm) and other with <1Ohm. The difference in tonal balance was audible switching from one to another, definitely not placebo. The higher impedance source gave me more boomy, exaggerated bass response. Audiophiles often talk about golden rule, that source impedance should be 8x lower then headphone impedance. I'm usually taking this stuff with a grain of salt, but in this case it can be measured and is audible in some cases.


Ars non habet osorem nisi ignorantem
Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Ragtime2k #2960200 03/25/20 05:49 AM
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Good points, ABC.
I was wondering what amplifier you have that has 470 Ω impedance. That's ridiculously high.
Then I re-read what you wrote ... only 47 Ω. Still ... I wonder why so high? What kind of an amp is that? Is it the stage piano you mentioned?

Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
JoeThePro #2960205 03/25/20 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeThePro

Originally Posted by Abdol
Beyerdynamic DT770PRO


I see that those come in a variety of impedances (32/80/250 ohms). I'd assume the 32 ohms model is the way to go, unless you have a headphone amp? 80 ohms is getting up there. Does the impedance have an impact on the sound quality, or just determine the source it is best used with to accommodate a wide range of uses?


I have the 250Ohms and unless you really want them loud, it even works nicely on my iphone6s and even better on my android phones. PC is no problem.
Maybe get the 80Ohms but I doubt the difference will be more than barely audible.

Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Ragtime2k #2960222 03/25/20 08:39 AM
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This impedance specified needs another dimension as well.
It's just 1 KHz signal - and what happends in the full range 20-20.000 could be anything.
That is why better headphone amps sees to that there is enough wattage to satisfy the full range.

A coil like a speaker usually have greater impedance at higher frequency which means you need higher voltage to not reduce wattage that might be in music.

effect = voltage squared/resistance means the higher the resistance the more voltage you need to give the same effect.

Seing specs of these headphone amps show a bit how it works
https://www.lake-people.com/product-page/phone-amp-g105

"520 mW (600 Ohm) _ 1050 mW (200 Ohm) _ 1100 mW (100 Ohm) _ 1200 mW (50 Ohm) _ 500 mW (16 Ohm)"

So it's about more than volume this with impedance, it's about accurate reproduction of source material. If you distort frequency curve - everybody know what that means.

So that you think it's loud enough, does not mean you give phones a good chance unless phone amp also have resources to drive it over the full range. Lower impedance difference is less, but going up to 150 ohm and up - consider headphone amp. Phones circuits in equipment often does not cost more than $0.50 so running phone amps on line outs instead is much better sound.

All my keyboard gear I run through a Mackie mixer with Onyx preamps, that have rather powerful phones circuits. Probably the cheapest to get decent sound - around $120 or so. But for HD650 I have a separate ProJect headphone amp to give it justice.


Kawai MP7SE - Hammond XK3c - Synthesizers
Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Nip #2960235 03/25/20 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Nip
So it's about more than volume this with impedance, it's about accurate reproduction of source material. If you distort frequency curve - everybody know what that means.

+1

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Good points, ABC.
I was wondering what amplifier you have that has 470 Ω impedance. That's ridiculously high.
Then I re-read what you wrote ... only 47 Ω. Still ... I wonder why so high? What kind of an amp is that? Is it the stage piano you mentioned?

It's Art Headamp 4 Pro - according to specs it has 47 Ω on each headphone output. My audio interface has 50 Ω for HP output and that's what you can find in most audio interfaces from what I remember. So called 'audiophile' O2 headphone amp I borrowed from a friend is rated below 1 Ω. Although I haven't measured any of them (sold all measuring equipment after finished studying electrical engineering), I've liked bass response better on the O2. Tighter, less boomy. I wouldn't expect digital pianos HP outputs to be on the level with this O2 amp.


Ars non habet osorem nisi ignorantem
Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
JoeThePro #2960238 03/25/20 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeThePro

Originally Posted by Abdol
Beyerdynamic DT770PRO


I see that those come in a variety of impedances (32/80/250 ohms). I'd assume the 32 ohms model is the way to go, unless you have a headphone amp? 80 ohms is getting up there. Does the impedance have an impact on the sound quality, or just determine the source it is best used with to accommodate a wide range of uses?


https://support.beyerdynamic.com/hc/en-us/articles/202503041-Which-DT-770-for-which-source-

Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
JoeThePro #2960239 03/25/20 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeThePro

Originally Posted by Abdol
Beyerdynamic DT770PRO


I see that those come in a variety of impedances (32/80/250 ohms). I'd assume the 32 ohms model is the way to go, unless you have a headphone amp? 80 ohms is getting up there. Does the impedance have an impact on the sound quality, or just determine the source it is best used with to accommodate a wide range of uses?


250 Ohm should be fine but not loud. If you doubt it, get the 80 ohms.

I bought Massdrop's Sennheiser HD6XX (300 Ohms) and almost at max volume it is mildly loud, but I'm planning to get an amp later. It's fully usable though.

I have KOSS semi-open headphones and Sony MDR-7506. I never use KOSS because when I'm arranging string sections, it doesn't represent the frequencies properly.

One thing with good monitor headphones is if your mix sounds good on them, it will sound good on hi-fi/PA speakers as well. It's your reference after all...

Sony MDR-7506 sounds like a $200 headphones, crisp and it has a good punch to them. They are industry/studio standard headphones. Almost every studio has one! The problem is the drivers retire too early I guess because they're low-impedance headphones the drivers retire too early (loud input -> too much pressure on the drivers).

My Sony MDR-7506 has both its drivers busted and they are expensive almost 80-90% of the original price.

Anyway, I guess you'd be fine with 250 Ohms. Not super loud, but you can get an Amp and they're closed-cups. One other positive point with high impedance is that you can have multiple headphones connected to the same source of audio without introducing too much power consumption, unlike low-impedance headphones.

Apple products are an exception. Apple puts more ampere which probably can drive higher impedance headphones. Not every laptop or cellphone is designed like that.


Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha MOTF XF6, Yamaha WX5, Yamaha Pacifica 112v
Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Ragtime2k #2961343 03/28/20 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by I

If you are buying headphones to use for practice and playing for yourself, then whatever combination of comfort, cost, and sound that you enjoy is all that matters. Especially inaccurate ones theoretically might create some issues with translation of practice sessions to an accounting acoustic piano, but I am skeptical that will be an issue for anything you enjoy using— no more an issue than translation of practice from one acoustic piano to another.

Typo from Apple spell destroyer corrected above.

I would add that some mixers have reasonable quality headphone amps that may be not particularly different from the quality of some standalone headphone amp, and may not be all that different in price. If buying a headphone amp, it is useful to keep in mind that buying it in a mixer can provide better value, depending on which products are compared.


Login name is a tribute to Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck.
Re: MP7SE - best "budget" headphones?
Ragtime2k #2961472 03/29/20 06:38 AM
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(uhmm... I'll end up buying the Yamaha HPH-100...)

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