2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
39 registered members (camperbc, Bill McKaig,RPT, Almaviva, Chernobieff Piano, Deltajockey, 36251, cameronkkk, D959, 10 invisible), 308 guests, and 443 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples [Re: MacMacMac] #2960667 03/26/20 12:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,193
G
Gombessa Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 4,193
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Perhaps we need to clarify what we mean by samples.

Modart would have to listen to the subject piano using microphone(s), and would then record the sounds.
And then do their magic analysis to be able to render the piano algorithmically / modelistically.
So does that recording count as "sampling".

Or maybe that completely wrong. Maybe they listen with ears only? And then tweak some magic to get PT to produce the sound.


To me, those are fundamentally the same. They're using some instrumentality (recording, or human ears) to create a reference to judge their eventual physical model. Personally, I think that's fine, and doesn't contradict Pianoteq's modeling claim.

What I'm not entirely sure about is whether that reference is 1) the original samples used to create the digital grand (thus, it's by all accounts a sample of an acoustic piano), or 2) samples OF the digital grand (thus, it's a sample of a digital piano).

I don't care at all if the master recordings they use were also used to create a DP, that to me would still be sampling a real acoustic piano; the digital would be completely separate and IMO irrelevant to the Pianoteq discussion.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods, and more!
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples [Re: MacMacMac] #2960670 03/26/20 12:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,078
CyberGene Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,078
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Perhaps we need to clarify what we mean by samples.

Modart would have to listen to the subject piano using microphone(s), and would then record the sounds.
And then do their magic analysis to be able to render the piano algorithmically / modelistically.
So does that recording count as "sampling".

Or maybe that completely wrong. Maybe they listen with ears only? And then tweak some magic to get PT to produce the sound.


Well, modeling means they go and measure the piano: distances, geometry, hardness of materials, spectral analysis of components (just kidding) and that type of stuff. Maybe record a piece with it. Then ask the guys "excuse me gentlemen, what model is that piano?" and they answer proudly "This is a Bechstein D282" and Pianoteq say "Here's our newest piano modeled after C. Bechstein D282". Not "here's our newest model: Pianoteq Yamaha CLP645". Well, yeah, CLP645 also uses samples from a CFX, so if you say it's OK to just fetch a Clav and be able to model a real CFX with its samples rather than going and recording your own demos... It's all too smelly smile


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples [Re: Mta88] #2960674 03/26/20 12:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,078
CyberGene Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,078
Because it might not be clear. There's a model called "Bechstein DG". And that's not an acoustic grand. It's not even digital piano. It's a VST smile DG stands for "digital grand". Why would you call the model "Bechstein DG" and not "Bechstein D 282"? It's like calling a modeled Pianoteq piano "Garritan CFX" or "The Noir". Sure it's possible but what does it mean?

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/26/20 12:26 PM.

My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples [Re: CyberGene] #2960734 03/26/20 03:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 810
M
Macy Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 810
What struck me as interesting (perhaps even odd) was that Pianoteq was modeling (trying to produce the sound) of a sampled representation of an acoustic piano, not the acoustic piano itself. Are they saying they liked the sound created by the sampled version of the acoustic piano better than the sound of the acoustic piano itself? So they decided to try and model the sampled version of the piano? That would be the ultimate compliment to piano sampling wouldn't it (and ironically coming from a modeling-based company)? The sampled piano may not be a perfect representation of the original, but it's better than the original.

No, I doubt that's the reason they modeled the sampled version. I'm guessing it's some sort of marketing/licensing issue. Maybe Bechstein refused to license Pianoteq the right to name their modeled version after their acoustic piano because they themselves already market a Kontakt VST (sampled version) of their piano. So instead they licensed Pianoteq the right to call their modeled VST a version of their sampled VST so it doesn't appear to directly compete with their VST. i.e. it's a copy of a copy of the real thing.

It's all seems pretty silly. Neither VST is going to sound (or play) exactly like the acoustic, and the Pianoteq VST isn't going to sound exactly like the Kontact VST, so they are really 3 different "instruments".





Last edited by Macy; 03/26/20 03:16 PM.

Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples [Re: Mta88] #2960736 03/26/20 03:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,494
TheodorN Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,494
Interesting discussions, I agree Modartt must begin with some kind of samples of the piano meant to be modelled, or recordings of it.

Philippe Guillaume just doesn't sit down in front of the piano, with nothing but his ears, starts playing, and then sits down in front of the computer to start tweaking his algorhitms/models, trying to mimic what he remembers hearing. eek

There must be some recordings made, probably with high end microphones, and even more advanced recording equipment.

Obviously, when modelling, the whole sampling process is not followed through, like in the case of really sampled (no question about it) pianos, like the Garritan CFX, but possibly the journey begins on the same steps, in both cases.

Last edited by TheodorN; 03/26/20 03:24 PM.

Me on YouTube

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX, Production Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand LE, AcousticSamples C7, NI Giant, Sampletekk White Grand, Choc. Audio Steinbach, and a few more. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples [Re: Mta88] #2960744 03/26/20 03:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 322
S
stamkorg Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 322
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2-WPUr6P8

In this this video, they talk about the Petrof. You can see there is sound recording.
I can't speak in place of Philippe Guillaume, but yes I think the Pianoteq process requires the recording of samples first.

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples [Re: Mta88] #2960834 03/26/20 08:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 933
M
Mta88 Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 933
Oh boy... what did I do lol..


::Yamaha p105:Roland fp10:Rokit 6 G3 Studio Monitors::Presonus USB Audiobox:: Audio Technica ATH-M50::Sennehiser Hd598c::Pianoteq::Garritan CFX::

::Kayserburg UH 132 Royal Vertical::
::1934 Danemann Upright located at MTA PHARMACY::
“Play me I’m Yours”public piano at my store smile.
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples [Re: Craig Richards] #2960877 03/26/20 11:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 256
F
Fleer Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 256
Originally Posted by Craig Richards
Yes, Fleer is correct. Modartt created their C.Bechstein D282 model using the recordings made by Bechstein's engineers and recording engineer Tobias Lehmann at Teldex Studios as audio reference for their model. The same samples (plus some very extensive scripting) were used in the official C.Bechstein Digital Grand which runs in Kontakt. I have both the Pianoteq C.Bechstein D282 model & the Kontakt based C.Bechstein Digital.

Same here smile

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples [Re: Jake Jackson] #2960878 03/26/20 11:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 256
F
Fleer Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 256
Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
Version 6.7 of Pianoteq introduces two new, significant controls: the duration of specific frequencies in the resonance and the EQ of the resonance. Makes a big difference in the sound, to my ears. Check out some of the recent demo's on the fxp page: https://forum.modartt.com/fxpcorner/index.php . Clicking on the name of the audio file in the middle column will play the file. The ones that experiment with the two new controls mention that fact or include the abbreviation "res" in the name.

^^^ This!

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Piano World 

Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Musician's Hand Sanitizer available in our online store (and our Maple Street Music shop in Cornish Maine). Antibacterial, 62% ethyl alcohol. Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Tons more music related products in our online store!
(ad)
Pianoforall
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pieces to learn or listen to during COVID-19 pandemic
by Tubbie0075 - 03/28/20 09:00 PM
Self-isolation
by MarieJ - 03/28/20 08:57 PM
Essential Services?
by malkin - 03/28/20 08:34 PM
Why are Kawai and Nord doing this?
by Almaviva - 03/28/20 06:53 PM
MP7SE vs S7 Pro vs Grandstage
by PeterGr - 03/28/20 05:39 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics197,751
Posts2,939,763
Members96,393
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3