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Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: AB99] #2960856 03/26/20 10:17 PM
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Harpuia Offline
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Originally Posted by AB99
Thank you. Is there a way to transfer the settings by computer so I can load the setting it in my VSL Steinway?

Originally Posted by Harpuia
OP here we go! I have VSL D-274 and have rendered the midi using several different settings.

Recently I purchased the Synchron Piano Bundles from VSL so I have all 4 Synchron Pianos at this point. I just rendered the midi file provided by propianists:

1. D-274 10 mics custom (rendering only. Playing real time will need to increase buffer size thus increasing latency): https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9245kfhzulrovw/Fandango-D274-10-Mics.wav?dl=0

2. D-274 5 mics custom (modified from karvala's setting and I use it for real time playing): https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fw4pyq3oqz2j6e/Fandango-D274-5-Mics.wav?dl=0

3. D-274 factory concert preset (the same preset as Chopin Op.10 No.4 on the official website): https://www.dropbox.com/s/svo1iu0lqatrkqm/Fandango-D274-Concert-Preset.wav?dl=0

4. CFX 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/efticgfjkab81b3/Fandango-CFX-6-Mics.wav?dl=0

5. Bluthner 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hubw9fcd7drj8be/Fandango-Bluthner.wav?dl=0

6. Bosendorfer Upright 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl4td0jia18ruf9/Fandango-Bosendorfer-Upright.wav?dl=0

Among all 4 Synchron Pianos I like D-274 and CFX equally. Although Bluther and Bosendorfer don't sound bad but these 2 pianos lack the power I want when live playing. Anyway this should give OP an overview of how VSL pianos sound like.



D-274 10 mics patch is from VSL forum: https://www.vsl.co.at/community/pos...Rondo-Bb-Anh-6--Fantasy-op-77#post279621

I get the 5 mics patch from Piano World member karvala: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...sl-steinway-d-released.html#Post2796438. This is my go-to setting for live playing as it gives a good presence of the piano. Note that 5 mics could be resource consuming for many computers and make sure you have a fast SSD to stream the sample, and also a relatively high performance CPU (preferably i7 above).

PW member Erard also had a good setting here: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2796438/3.html with 3 mics. This is also a good one if resource is an issue to run 5 mics concurrently but it could sound a little dry, and you can add convolution reverb on top of that.

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Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2960859 03/26/20 10:29 PM
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Harpuia Offline
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Originally Posted by carlspost
Originally Posted by Harpuia
OP here we go! I have VSL D-274 and have rendered the midi using several different settings.

Recently I purchased the Synchron Piano Bundles from VSL so I have all 4 Synchron Pianos at this point. I just rendered the midi file provided by propianists:

1. D-274 10 mics custom (rendering only. Playing real time will need to increase buffer size thus increasing latency): https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9245kfhzulrovw/Fandango-D274-10-Mics.wav?dl=0

2. D-274 5 mics custom (modified from karvala's setting and I use it for real time playing): https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fw4pyq3oqz2j6e/Fandango-D274-5-Mics.wav?dl=0

3. D-274 factory concert preset (the same preset as Chopin Op.10 No.4 on the official website): https://www.dropbox.com/s/svo1iu0lqatrkqm/Fandango-D274-Concert-Preset.wav?dl=0

4. CFX 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/efticgfjkab81b3/Fandango-CFX-6-Mics.wav?dl=0

5. Bluthner 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hubw9fcd7drj8be/Fandango-Bluthner.wav?dl=0

6. Bosendorfer Upright 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl4td0jia18ruf9/Fandango-Bosendorfer-Upright.wav?dl=0

Among all 4 Synchron Pianos I like D-274 and CFX equally. Although Bluther and Bosendorfer don't sound bad but these 2 pianos lack the power I want when live playing. Anyway this should give OP an overview of how VSL pianos sound like.


Thanks you so much Harpuia for these samples. I appreciate your time posting them. They are most helpful.
Im most interested in the 3rd sample (the same preset as Chopin Op.10 No.4 on the official website)

I am curious why it sounds so different from the sample on the VSL website. There seems to be a great deal more reverb in your version. I have had contact with VSL directly and they have confirmed that the Chopin Etude on their website was quote "made with the factory presets, maybe slightly tweaked by our composers. In the case of the Chopin Etude Op 10 no 4: it was the Concert Room-Mix preset that comes with the Standard Library. "

I suspect that the 'slight tweaking' was the reduction in reverb effect. Are you able turn down or reduce the reverb to get a more similar effect? They also sent me a screen shot of the combination of mics used (but Im not sure how to attached it here) From what I see it was just -Room Mix , Condenser and Mid1.
I was surprised that it was just the standard version which they also confirmed has 70 velocity layers just like the full version.

Thank you again!


Hi carlspost,

Yes I rendered the third sample using the Concert Room-Mix preset. I'm not sure if they are using exactly this preset or slightly tweaking it. I was referring to this video
and the screenshot looks like the Concert Room-Mix preset.

Anyway, even if the Concert Room-Mix preset sounds OK if you are listening to it, but it is almost UNPLAYABLE in real time because this preset is giving an impression of sitting in the last row of a concert hall. If you go to that youtube video you will notice that the room mix mic was set a 21ms delay and that helps to create the distant effect of the Synchron Stage, but it also gives 21ms of latency for live playing. I wouldn't recommend using that preset for live playing but would recommend the settings in my above reply, or at least using the Player preset provided by VSL. In the Standard Library you could use Room Mix presets and Decca Tree presets. There are player presets in these two groups. Just try tweaking from the player presets you should be able to get a somewhat satisfying sound from it.

you could look at my above reply if you are interested in the settings. There is a gentleman in the VSL forum renders a lot of repertoires in different artistic style using his 10 mics patch here: http://composer.resampled.de/en/synchron.html. But either this setting or the setting provided by karvala requires the full version.

Yes the standard version has all velocity layers from the full version. The only difference is the mic positions. VSL also provided a Lite version with only Condenser mic and Room Mix mic, and half the velocity layers with a cheaper price if you are into that.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2960874 03/26/20 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by carlspost
I actually found one which was a live performance. I believe the one you uploaded was more a computer generated midi. ( I got this one from the e-piano competition.)


The MIDI file which I originally posted earlier in this thread (Post2959583) is exactly the same source MIDI file as you're using, and I too found it online from exactly the same e-piano competition also. Pretty much the first google search result.
You are erroneously claiming my MIDI file was computer generated / sequenced and erroneously claiming yours is better because it was played by a "human" when in fact they are the exact same human performance taken from Igor Andreev in the e-piano competition, except that I have merely increased the rather slow opening BPM tempo so it roughly matched the performance tempo of Jose Menor in the YouTube link, because that sound is what we're trying to mimic here. I also pushed my VST velocity curve a little while rendering to bring Igor's softer playing up nearer to Jose's stronger touch. However I can still hear both MIDI files are the one and the same from the rhythmic phrasing and other characteristics.
Jose's faster tempo might be better / more accurate because elsewhere on YouTube there's a reproduction of composer himself playing it, via a 1916 pianola roll, which is similar.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2961075 Yesterday at 06:39 PM
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Osho Offline
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This is a really interesting experiment. I haven't followed the entire thread - but what is the closest you could get to Jose Menor's performance recording sound?

Osho


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Kawai Novus NV10 + VST. Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Pianoteq 6/Embertone Walker D Full

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Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: propianist] #2961082 Yesterday at 07:05 PM
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carlspost Offline OP
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Originally Posted by propianist
Originally Posted by carlspost
I actually found one which was a live performance. I believe the one you uploaded was more a computer generated midi. ( I got this one from the e-piano competition.)


The MIDI file which I originally posted earlier in this thread (Post2959583) is exactly the same source MIDI file as you're using, and I too found it online from exactly the same e-piano competition also. Pretty much the first google search result.
You are erroneously claiming my MIDI file was computer generated / sequenced and erroneously claiming yours is better because it was played by a "human" when in fact they are the exact same human performance taken from Igor Andreev in the e-piano competition, except that I have merely increased the rather slow opening BPM tempo so it roughly matched the performance tempo of Jose Menor in the YouTube link, because that sound is what we're trying to mimic here. I also pushed my VST velocity curve a little while rendering to bring Igor's softer playing up nearer to Jose's stronger touch. However I can still hear both MIDI files are the one and the same from the rhythmic phrasing and other characteristics.
Jose's faster tempo might be better / more accurate because elsewhere on YouTube there's a reproduction of composer himself playing it, via a 1916 pianola roll, which is similar.


Hi Propianist, .. OK I see what you've done there. My apologies for assuming it was a sequenced version. I have rendered your version using a blend of Ravenscroft and the Garritan CFX... (See earlier post) . I think the sound is the closets I can get to the real Youtube version thus far but Im still working on it.. If I make further progress I will post the results.. smile

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