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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
MacMacMac #2960667 03/26/20 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Perhaps we need to clarify what we mean by samples.

Modart would have to listen to the subject piano using microphone(s), and would then record the sounds.
And then do their magic analysis to be able to render the piano algorithmically / modelistically.
So does that recording count as "sampling".

Or maybe that completely wrong. Maybe they listen with ears only? And then tweak some magic to get PT to produce the sound.


To me, those are fundamentally the same. They're using some instrumentality (recording, or human ears) to create a reference to judge their eventual physical model. Personally, I think that's fine, and doesn't contradict Pianoteq's modeling claim.

What I'm not entirely sure about is whether that reference is 1) the original samples used to create the digital grand (thus, it's by all accounts a sample of an acoustic piano), or 2) samples OF the digital grand (thus, it's a sample of a digital piano).

I don't care at all if the master recordings they use were also used to create a DP, that to me would still be sampling a real acoustic piano; the digital would be completely separate and IMO irrelevant to the Pianoteq discussion.


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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
MacMacMac #2960670 03/26/20 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Perhaps we need to clarify what we mean by samples.

Modart would have to listen to the subject piano using microphone(s), and would then record the sounds.
And then do their magic analysis to be able to render the piano algorithmically / modelistically.
So does that recording count as "sampling".

Or maybe that completely wrong. Maybe they listen with ears only? And then tweak some magic to get PT to produce the sound.


Well, modeling means they go and measure the piano: distances, geometry, hardness of materials, spectral analysis of components (just kidding) and that type of stuff. Maybe record a piece with it. Then ask the guys "excuse me gentlemen, what model is that piano?" and they answer proudly "This is a Bechstein D282" and Pianoteq say "Here's our newest piano modeled after C. Bechstein D282". Not "here's our newest model: Pianoteq Yamaha CLP645". Well, yeah, CLP645 also uses samples from a CFX, so if you say it's OK to just fetch a Clav and be able to model a real CFX with its samples rather than going and recording your own demos... It's all too smelly smile


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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960674 03/26/20 12:24 PM
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Because it might not be clear. There's a model called "Bechstein DG". And that's not an acoustic grand. It's not even digital piano. It's a VST smile DG stands for "digital grand". Why would you call the model "Bechstein DG" and not "Bechstein D 282"? It's like calling a modeled Pianoteq piano "Garritan CFX" or "The Noir". Sure it's possible but what does it mean?

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/26/20 12:26 PM.

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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
CyberGene #2960734 03/26/20 03:16 PM
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What struck me as interesting (perhaps even odd) was that Pianoteq was modeling (trying to produce the sound) of a sampled representation of an acoustic piano, not the acoustic piano itself. Are they saying they liked the sound created by the sampled version of the acoustic piano better than the sound of the acoustic piano itself? So they decided to try and model the sampled version of the piano? That would be the ultimate compliment to piano sampling wouldn't it (and ironically coming from a modeling-based company)? The sampled piano may not be a perfect representation of the original, but it's better than the original.

No, I doubt that's the reason they modeled the sampled version. I'm guessing it's some sort of marketing/licensing issue. Maybe Bechstein refused to license Pianoteq the right to name their modeled version after their acoustic piano because they themselves already market a Kontakt VST (sampled version) of their piano. So instead they licensed Pianoteq the right to call their modeled VST a version of their sampled VST so it doesn't appear to directly compete with their VST. i.e. it's a copy of a copy of the real thing.

It's all seems pretty silly. Neither VST is going to sound (or play) exactly like the acoustic, and the Pianoteq VST isn't going to sound exactly like the Kontact VST, so they are really 3 different "instruments".





Last edited by Macy; 03/26/20 03:16 PM.

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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960736 03/26/20 03:23 PM
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Interesting discussions, I agree Modartt must begin with some kind of samples of the piano meant to be modelled, or recordings of it.

Philippe Guillaume just doesn't sit down in front of the piano, with nothing but his ears, starts playing, and then sits down in front of the computer to start tweaking his algorhitms/models, trying to mimic what he remembers hearing. eek

There must be some recordings made, probably with high end microphones, and even more advanced recording equipment.

Obviously, when modelling, the whole sampling process is not followed through, like in the case of really sampled (no question about it) pianos, like the Garritan CFX, but possibly the journey begins on the same steps, in both cases.

Last edited by TheodorN; 03/26/20 03:24 PM.

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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960744 03/26/20 03:33 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2-WPUr6P8

In this this video, they talk about the Petrof. You can see there is sound recording.
I can't speak in place of Philippe Guillaume, but yes I think the Pianoteq process requires the recording of samples first.

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960834 03/26/20 08:36 PM
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Oh boy... what did I do lol..


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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Craig Richards #2960877 03/26/20 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Richards
Yes, Fleer is correct. Modartt created their C.Bechstein D282 model using the recordings made by Bechstein's engineers and recording engineer Tobias Lehmann at Teldex Studios as audio reference for their model. The same samples (plus some very extensive scripting) were used in the official C.Bechstein Digital Grand which runs in Kontakt. I have both the Pianoteq C.Bechstein D282 model & the Kontakt based C.Bechstein Digital.

Same here smile

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Jake Jackson #2960878 03/26/20 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
Version 6.7 of Pianoteq introduces two new, significant controls: the duration of specific frequencies in the resonance and the EQ of the resonance. Makes a big difference in the sound, to my ears. Check out some of the recent demo's on the fxp page: https://forum.modartt.com/fxpcorner/index.php . Clicking on the name of the audio file in the middle column will play the file. The ones that experiment with the two new controls mention that fact or include the abbreviation "res" in the name.

^^^ This!

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2982348 05/21/20 11:14 PM
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I have to say PQ 6.6+ Bechstein completely refreshes my understanding of modeling VST. After a lot of setup and tweaking, it worked really well on my CA98, even better than my previous favorite, the VSL D274. No matter how you adjust it, the sound of the latter always has a sense of distance, but PQ Bechstein is completely authentic from inside the piano.
Hope they can do better in the future.


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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2982367 05/22/20 02:34 AM
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VSL in unfortunately very distant, and I have seen long threads here how to deal with it...
The only way for it to sound proper is to set volume high (what is also need to be done on most of classical recording(, they are too distant and too quiet for me

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
impossiblejj #2982489 05/22/20 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by impossiblejj
VSL in unfortunately very distant, and I have seen long threads here how to deal with it...
The only way for it to sound proper is to set volume high (what is also need to be done on most of classical recording(, they are too distant and too quiet for me

Yes, because VSL was recorded in a real large hall space, even if all reverbs were turned off and only close microphones were used, there would still be a sound distance.
However, based on the principle of modeling sound, PQ can have a wider range of sound output adjustment parameters, including the ability to move the microphone position and microphone type, and the ability to output more pure and extremely near-field sound.
This is particularly suitable for all pianos using soundboard speakers (CA9X, NV5/AURES/TA2), as the richer resonance details of all sampled VSTs would be an advantage, but would overlap with the resonance of the soundboard itself, resulting in sound turbidity. At this point, the purer audio signal produced by PQ is more suitable.
Overall, I was satisfied with the results of PQ Bechstein, except that the tweeter on the CA98 was a little distorted on several high notes.

Last edited by robinlb; 05/22/20 12:26 PM.

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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2982492 05/22/20 12:39 PM
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Yes, they modelled the Digital Grand, but whatever the source, the parameters of Pianoteq must be calculated from a digital record, then it is probably simpler to use an already made record than to create a new record. It may be better if the record has been made with care.


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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
robinlb #2982522 05/22/20 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by robinlb
Originally Posted by impossiblejj
VSL in unfortunately very distant, and I have seen long threads here how to deal with it...
The only way for it to sound proper is to set volume high (what is also need to be done on most of classical recording(, they are too distant and too quiet for me

Yes, because VSL was recorded in a real large hall space, even if all reverbs were turned off and only close microphones were used, there would still be a sound distance.

While I get that what you wrote above is in context of D-274, I'd like to clarify a bit:
Only Steinway and Yamaha were recorded in relatively big (540 sq.m.) Stage A.
Blüthner, and Bösendorfer Upright were recorded in small 68.7 sq.m. Stage B.


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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2982629 05/22/20 08:52 PM
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Sorry, it's a typo of mine. I'm talking about two concert pianos of VSL synchron.
In addition, what I said above is only based on my experience of the soundboard speakers. In fact, sampling VSTs such as VSL D274 will show more advantages than PQ when using monitor speakers for playback.
I also began to understand why staigraeber cooperated with PQ in the test of installing transducers driven soundboard on his acoustic grand piano in 2017.

Last edited by robinlb; 05/22/20 09:01 PM.

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VSL CFX&D274&Bluthner1895, Ivory2 ACD, Galaxy VintageD&StD, Bechstein DG, Embertone 1955Walker
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2982734 05/23/20 08:37 AM
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Can somebody please post their preferred adjustments for the Bechstein? I love the Steingraeber but find the sound of the Bechstein (any of the options) too bell-like.

Many thanks
Giulio

Last edited by giu; 05/23/20 08:37 AM.
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2983000 05/23/20 10:37 PM
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On my playback system, I didn't feel that the sound of Bechstein was too bell like, and of course I adjusted the Settings of the microphone. In fact, I found that the position and type of the microphone had a huge effect on the sound output, among other parameters.
I put the 4 mics as close to the piano body as possible, and on the area of keyboard, strings hammer and soundboard.
Btw, you can increase Q-factor or hammer noise of high notes a little to test, and refer to some discussions in their forums.

Last edited by robinlb; 05/23/20 10:38 PM.

CA98~~RME ADI2 DAC
VSL CFX&D274&Bluthner1895, Ivory2 ACD, Galaxy VintageD&StD, Bechstein DG, Embertone 1955Walker
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