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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
EssBrace #2960299 03/25/20 01:01 PM
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Does this mean it's time for me to try Pianoteq once again?
Originally Posted by EssBrace
I've just acquired a used Kawai VPC1 and I reluctantly resigned myself to having to slum it with PianoTeq (which I very rarely play because there's something difficult to define that I just couldn't get along with on all PianoTeq sounds).

I updated to 6.7 and thought, sod it, in homage to my grand piano I'll buy the new PT Bechstein model. I listened to all the available PT demos and thought it sounded the best to me. The Steingraber is second best to my ears.
Is 6.7 a real improvement over whatever 6.x I tried in demo?

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
MacMacMac #2960300 03/25/20 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Does this mean it's time for me to try Pianoteq once again?

Is 6.7 a real improvement over whatever 6.x I tried in demo?


Go on, give it a go Mac.

I'd say the thing that has made the difference for me is the Bechstein model, not the move to 6.7. If you've already tried the Bechstein and didn't like it I'm not sure what (if any) difference you'll notice. Because it's ages since I've played PianoTeq I'm not well versed in what the more recent revisions to the basic software actually mean in practice. But the Bechstein model is useable for me (especially 'player position'). It's not perfect and I can tell it's PianoTeq but I'm enjoying it.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 | Kawai VPC1
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960301 03/25/20 01:20 PM
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Quote
It's not perfect and I can tell it's PianoTeq but I'm enjoying it.


Now that is the approach to take IMHO actually not humble IMO!!!

Really Pianoteq is great for the interaction it provides. Stop nit-picking the software so much. Yes it has flaws but come on folk for the little $ the stage cost it really is a bargain especially now in version 6.

I don't know if they will ever get rid of the metallic ting as some call it but it really is a lot less now then it was in say version 4. How about support this great software so it can improve for all of us. I love that the size of the program is so small compared to say Garritan CFX.

Peace


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960417 03/25/20 07:24 PM
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I've been messing with the Bechstein Sweet, and with a little EQ, it really shines played through the built-in speakers on the ES8. Im so impressed with these speakers.
The upper half of the keyboard sounds a little loud though, or maybe its the lower half that sounds quieter, I cant tell. There are some very unpleasant resonances I've encountered in the 4th-6th octaves, so I need to mess with EQ and speaker position more to try to calm them down. But overall, wow what a sound.

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
JoeThePro #2960462 03/25/20 09:57 PM
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I've been out of the loop for a while but just looked in and saw this topic. So Modartt has modeled a sampled version of a Bechstein? A model of a sampled digital piano? If that's right I didn't think I'd see the day that a digital sampled piano was so good it would be modeled instead of its acoustic source.


Macy

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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Macy #2960466 03/25/20 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Macy
I've been out of the loop for a while but just looked in and saw this topic. So Modartt has modeled a sampled version of a Bechstein? A model of a sampled digital piano? If that's right I didn't think I'd see the day that a digital sampled piano was so good it would be modeled instead of its acoustic source.


No they have modeled an actual Bechstein. I don't think anyone would model a sample!

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
JoeThePro #2960481 03/25/20 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeThePro
No they have modeled an actual Bechstein. I don't think anyone would model a sample!


So what does this mean (from the Pianoteq website):

C. Bechstein DIGITAL GRAND
"This physical model of C. Bechstein DIGITAL GRAND is originally derived from a C. Bechstein D 282 concert grand piano, captured by the acclaimed Teldex Recording studio in Berlin."

Sure sounds to me like they modeled the DIGITAL GRAND, not the original acoustic. The digital grand was sampled from the acoustic.

Is that not what they are saying?


Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960482 03/25/20 11:04 PM
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Exactly. Pianoteq modeled the Bechstein Digital Grand sampled by Bechstein.

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Macy #2960487 03/25/20 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Macy


So what does this mean (from the Pianoteq website):

C. Bechstein DIGITAL GRAND
"This physical model of C. Bechstein DIGITAL GRAND is originally derived from a C. Bechstein D 282 concert grand piano, captured by the acclaimed Teldex Recording studio in Berlin."

Sure sounds to me like they modeled the DIGITAL GRAND, not the original acoustic. The digital grand was sampled from the acoustic.

Is that not what they are saying?


Ha, I stand corrected!

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960494 03/26/20 12:08 AM
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Yes, Fleer is correct. Modartt created their C.Bechstein D282 model using the recordings made by Bechstein's engineers and recording engineer Tobias Lehmann at Teldex Studios as audio reference for their model. The same samples (plus some very extensive scripting) were used in the official C.Bechstein Digital Grand which runs in Kontakt. I have both the Pianoteq C.Bechstein D282 model & the Kontakt based C.Bechstein Digital.


Pianist, Composer & Arranger
Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Craig Richards #2960501 03/26/20 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Richards
Yes, Fleer is correct. Modartt created their C.Bechstein D282 model using the recordings made by Bechstein's engineers and recording engineer Tobias Lehmann at Teldex Studios as audio reference for their model. The same samples (plus some very extensive scripting) were used in the official C.Bechstein Digital Grand which runs in Kontakt. I have both the Pianoteq C.Bechstein D282 model & the Kontakt based C.Bechstein Digital.


Between Pianoteq C.Bechstein and Kontakt C.Bechstein Digital Grand, which one do you prefer?

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Harpuia #2960518 03/26/20 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Harpuia
Originally Posted by Craig Richards
Yes, Fleer is correct. Modartt created their C.Bechstein D282 model using the recordings made by Bechstein's engineers and recording engineer Tobias Lehmann at Teldex Studios as audio reference for their model. The same samples (plus some very extensive scripting) were used in the official C.Bechstein Digital Grand which runs in Kontakt. I have both the Pianoteq C.Bechstein D282 model & the Kontakt based C.Bechstein Digital.


Between Pianoteq C.Bechstein and Kontakt C.Bechstein Digital Grand, which one do you prefer?


How about the Casio GP510 in comparison?

C Bechstein everywhere :-).

Galuwen

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Macy #2960622 03/26/20 10:23 AM
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Welcom back, Macy. You've been absent for quite some time.
Originally Posted by Macy
Originally Posted by JoeThePro
No they have modeled an actual Bechstein. I don't think anyone would model a sample!

So what does this mean (from the Pianoteq website):
C. Bechstein DIGITAL GRAND
"This physical model of C. Bechstein DIGITAL GRAND is originally derived from a C. Bechstein D 282 concert grand piano, captured by the acclaimed Teldex Recording studio in Berlin."
Sure sounds to me like they modeled the DIGITAL GRAND, not the original acoustic. The digital grand was sampled from the acoustic.
Is that not what they are saying?

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960626 03/26/20 10:33 AM
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Mac, I've noticed you get annoyed by any suggestion that Pianoteq Bechstein DG is modeled after samples and not after a real piano and that always puzzles me. Is this just a general dissatisfaction you have with statements that are not 100% confirmed by an independent and certified laboratory or it's that you doubt a model can be made based on samples?

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/26/20 10:34 AM.

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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960627 03/26/20 10:34 AM
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You've got the wrong person, CG. I don't know or care how that Bechstein was created.
I was simply greeting Macy, who we've not seen for a long time.

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
MacMacMac #2960629 03/26/20 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You've got the wrong person, CG. I don't know or care how that Bechstein was created.
I was simply greeting Macy, who we've not seen for a long time.

Ahh, OK, was reading between the lines. I remember the last time I suggested exactly the same thing as Macy (that according to Pianoteq themselves, they modeled it after the samples of the Bechstein DG), you got rather annoyed and I was left with the impression you don't like theories and speculations. But I might be wrong and thinking of someone else. Apologies.


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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960645 03/26/20 11:22 AM
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I have not followed all this (and previous) discussions about Pianoteq being modelled after a physical piano vs. samples but I guess the first step to modeling any physical (AP, UP whatever) piano would be sampling it to perform an spectral/dynamic/whatever analysis over the samples. Other parts of the modeling that try reproducing other parts of the piano related to body/soundboard/room etc. could use other sources by I do not see how the process could work without sampling as a starting point.


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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960646 03/26/20 11:23 AM
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I thought that ALL the different Pianoteq pianos are based on reference samples? How do they claim a model sounds like a Steingraeber if they don't make it sound like a Steingraeber?

The Bechstein Digital Grand is kind of odd to me. Some people are saying it's based on the same original sampling session used for the Digital Grand, some say it's sampled directly from the Digital Grand. Those sound like very different claims to me. There should be little that distinguishes one master recording session from another. You can choose your instrument, environment, mics, player, techniques, but in the end it's a true, direct sample of a real acoustic instrument.

But if it's actually sampling the "digital grand" product, that suggests it's inheriting all the loss of bitrate, fidelity/compression, scripted effects, looping, filters, etc. needed to manipulate a raw master sample into a typical built-in hardware piano tone, which seems like it would be a lot of loss and kind of pointless.


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Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
MacMacMac #2960655 03/26/20 11:47 AM
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Version 6.7 of Pianoteq introduces two new, significant controls: the duration of specific frequencies in the resonance and the EQ of the resonance. Makes a big difference in the sound, to my ears. Check out some of the recent demo's on the fxp page: https://forum.modartt.com/fxpcorner/index.php . Clicking on the name of the audio file in the middle column will play the file. The ones that experiment with the two new controls mention that fact or include the abbreviation "res" in the name.

Re: Pianoteq 6.6 Bechstein audio Samples
Mta88 #2960661 03/26/20 11:56 AM
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Perhaps we need to clarify what we mean by samples.

Modart would have to listen to the subject piano using microphone(s), and would then record the sounds.
And then do their magic analysis to be able to render the piano algorithmically / modelistically.
So does that recording count as "sampling".

Or maybe that completely wrong. Maybe they listen with ears only? And then tweak some magic to get PT to produce the sound.

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