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Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2959649 03/22/20 06:37 PM
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Here's Propianist's MIDI file with the VSL Vienna Imperial (Player position) and the C.Bechstein Digital Grand (Side Position):

https://soundcloud.com/pianoproducer-online/fandango-vsl-vienna-imperial/s-6NmvzDasbHK

https://soundcloud.com/pianoproducer-online/fandango-cbechstein-digital-grand/s-p8Lkv5HMS3Z


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Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2959656 03/22/20 07:15 PM
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Same as above with the VSL Bosendorfer Imperial (custom preset):

https://soundcloud.com/pianoproducer-online/fandango-vsl-bosendorfer-imperial/s-H0McaS15LoX


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Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: Learux] #2959714 03/23/20 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Learux
[quote=magicpiano]My DP makes me sound like a hero, my acoustic shows me how much of an amateur I really am.

Yup, pretty much my experience as well.
DPs are a lot more forgiving than an acoustic.
I think volume is part of that and helps make things more obvious, more easily perceived.

I never play a DP as loudly as an acoustic would be, with headphones I would be afraid of frying my ears and despite having well made speakers, they don't stand a chance at replicating a grand piano in terms of volume & presence.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2959727 03/23/20 06:04 AM
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Thanks everyone!... I really appreciate all the replies and suggestions. I totally agree that there will unlikely ever be a software which can truly replicates the sound of a good acoustic piano recording.. but we are obviously all on the journey towards something that comes as close as possible. I still maintain that I (we) can achieve a satisfactory result. For example if you go to the demo page of the VSL D-274 and listen to the Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 4 , I think it comes closer than any other to my original youtube sample of the Granodos. ( https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Pianos_Bundle/Concert_D#!Demos)

Let me know if you agree or disagree.. I would love for someone with the D-274 to render a file for us to hear. If a similar result is achieved I will buy the software first thing tomorrow!

From what I understand the demo is produced with the additional help of some EQ work as its not one of the 'preset' samples. . but at least it offers a step towards my ultimate goal. ..

Thank you all again.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: propianist] #2959731 03/23/20 06:39 AM
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Just too funny!.. grin Thanks.. We could all do with a laugh right now..

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2959737 03/23/20 06:59 AM
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Hi Folks,

first of all THANK YOU VERY MUCH for that superbe thread. Indeed this little song seems to be the "murder death kill" for all VST pianos, because it contains everything from "intense use of all pedals" to 120% skill requirement, resonance modelling,... THIS is im MHO the reason for using high end Grand Pianos :-).

Let`s take it as a challange now. And I also would like to contribute. I tried what`s possible for my limited skills to render it with Garritan CFX as close as possible to the recording:

Rendering with Garritan CFX

And I found out that even the recording of the Original on yoututbe has it`s flaws (noise) - hehe it`s "organic" ;-)

Galuwen

P.S.: And you need a BEAST of a machine to play this in realtime (which I own for gods sake).

Last edited by Galuwen; 03/23/20 07:05 AM.
Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: Andrew_G] #2959825 03/23/20 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew_G
Originally Posted by U3piano
Recently I discovered the Embertone Walker. I am blown away. I have never played a virtual piano so beautiful, so inspiring.



Yes, this plugin is beautiful.
But please do not apply the sustain pedal if you want to play something fast -:)



With the half pedaling option on "eco" it seems fine so far (I5 U4570 processor), I have to get pretty crazy to make the cpu overload, but on "HQ" or "HQ+" it gets overloaded quite fast.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: Galuwen] #2959826 03/23/20 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Galuwen
I tried what`s possible for my limited skills

lol.

I wouldn't mind having such limited skills.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: Galuwen] #2959968 03/24/20 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Galuwen
I tried what`s possible for my limited skills to render it with Garritan CFX

Erm.. if those are "limited skills", maybe I should never touch a piano again. laugh


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2960086 03/24/20 04:04 PM
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It depends so much on your replay equipment, what settings you chose and your listening room that it's almost impossible to give good advice. I have 4 amplifiers and they all sound different. VST A sounds better with amplifier B while VST C sounds better with amplifier D etc. And they all sound different on headphones, of which I have several.

My own personal experience is limited, although I've heard loads in demos. Of the ones I've personally tried PV Concert Grand comes pretty close to the sound in the clip, but lighter with not as much midrange weight and body, It's bass, however, is subterraneum and crypt like in its depth and delivery. Fiddling with the settings along with a well chosen amp and speakers can help a lot. It really is a case of trial and error.

What's missing from most VSTs is a sense of solidity, weight and presence. I've no idea why it's so hard for piano VST developers to capture that when there's an abundance of good recordings out there demonstrating that it is possible.

While PV Concert Grand comes close, I would suggest you listen to the Embertone Walker. It's not a modern sound, like the one in the clip but it has an awful lot of what's missing from every one I've tried and from all those I've heard demonstrated. I personally love it.

Here's some demos from a user. The Walker, Synthogy American D and the PV Concert grand can all be found there. Note: My PV Concert Grand Compact sounds a lot better than his demo. It's all down to the settings and the replay equipment.


https://www.pianistkeunyoungsong.com/search/label/VSTi Review?&max-results=7

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2960207 03/25/20 06:56 AM
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Thank you Gulewen for your suggestion that we all try rendering the Fandango file. I actually found one which was a live performance. I believe the one you uploaded was more a computer generated midi. ( I got this one from the e-piano competition.)

And Craig Richards your samples are much appreciated.!

Let me know what you think of what I have come up with. I also did a Chopin Etude. If you compare them to my original reference piece on youtube (https://youtu.be/rzbS1VrUTns) I think Im slowly getting closer...?

Here is a link to my two samples. I haven't given any details of what I used to do these.. just to keep things objective. But I will let you know once you have had a listen. (it wasn't anything from VSL)

Fandango: https://soundcloud.com/user-997041856/fandango-mix
Chopin Etude: https://soundcloud.com/user-997041856/fandango-mix

Cheers, Carlspost.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2960208 03/25/20 07:03 AM
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@carlspost ... Oops! Those two links are the same.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2960214 03/25/20 07:25 AM
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carlspost, could your Fandango render be the Ravenscroft by any chance? I'm getting very similar results trying it out here.

Funny thing is, having been down on the RC for some time, I've a renewed liking for it, particularly for this kind of heavy-going repertoire.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2960216 03/25/20 08:00 AM
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Argh yes MacMacMac,

Thanks for pointing that out. This link should be OK for the Chopin..

https://soundcloud.com/user-997041856/chopin-mix-reverb

And Yes DireTonic, they are from the Ravenscroft... But I've actually blended them
With the Garritan CFX for a little clearer edge... A bit like finding that perfect wine blend..
.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2960240 03/25/20 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by carlspost
Thank you Gulewen for your suggestion that we all try rendering the Fandango file. I actually found one which was a live performance. I believe the one you uploaded was more a computer generated midi. ( I got this one from the e-piano competition.)

And Craig Richards your samples are much appreciated.!

Let me know what you think of what I have come up with. I also did a Chopin Etude. If you compare them to my original reference piece on youtube (https://youtu.be/rzbS1VrUTns) I think Im slowly getting closer...?

Here is a link to my two samples. I haven't given any details of what I used to do these.. just to keep things objective. But I will let you know once you have had a listen. (it wasn't anything from VSL)

Fandango: https://soundcloud.com/user-997041856/fandango-mix
Chopin Etude: https://soundcloud.com/user-997041856/fandango-mix

Cheers, Carlspost.


Hi Carlspost,

we only have to define what the outcome of this "micro research" should be.

Reading your post I was thinking that the challenge is to find out how close latest VSTs come to the real thing. Therefore it is important to render all the same file and compare with the Original.

The Midi file contains all vital controller information (also pedals).


Or have priorities changed?


Galuwen

PS.: IMHO it is difficult to compare different pieces sound wise. Your sample piece should also contain "open" parts to compare resonance effects for example.

Last edited by Galuwen; 03/25/20 10:16 AM.
Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2960395 03/25/20 06:37 PM
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OP here we go! I have VSL D-274 and have rendered the midi using several different settings.

Recently I purchased the Synchron Piano Bundles from VSL so I have all 4 Synchron Pianos at this point. I just rendered the midi file provided by propianists:

1. D-274 10 mics custom (rendering only. Playing real time will need to increase buffer size thus increasing latency): https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9245kfhzulrovw/Fandango-D274-10-Mics.wav?dl=0

2. D-274 5 mics custom (modified from karvala's setting and I use it for real time playing): https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fw4pyq3oqz2j6e/Fandango-D274-5-Mics.wav?dl=0

3. D-274 factory concert preset (the same preset as Chopin Op.10 No.4 on the official website): https://www.dropbox.com/s/svo1iu0lqatrkqm/Fandango-D274-Concert-Preset.wav?dl=0

4. CFX 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/efticgfjkab81b3/Fandango-CFX-6-Mics.wav?dl=0

5. Bluthner 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hubw9fcd7drj8be/Fandango-Bluthner.wav?dl=0

6. Bosendorfer Upright 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl4td0jia18ruf9/Fandango-Bosendorfer-Upright.wav?dl=0

Among all 4 Synchron Pianos I like D-274 and CFX equally. Although Bluther and Bosendorfer don't sound bad but these 2 pianos lack the power I want when live playing. Anyway this should give OP an overview of how VSL pianos sound like.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: Harpuia] #2960441 03/25/20 08:57 PM
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Thank you. Is there a way to transfer the settings by computer so I can load the setting it in my VSL Steinway?

Originally Posted by Harpuia
OP here we go! I have VSL D-274 and have rendered the midi using several different settings.

Recently I purchased the Synchron Piano Bundles from VSL so I have all 4 Synchron Pianos at this point. I just rendered the midi file provided by propianists:

1. D-274 10 mics custom (rendering only. Playing real time will need to increase buffer size thus increasing latency): https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9245kfhzulrovw/Fandango-D274-10-Mics.wav?dl=0

2. D-274 5 mics custom (modified from karvala's setting and I use it for real time playing): https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fw4pyq3oqz2j6e/Fandango-D274-5-Mics.wav?dl=0

3. D-274 factory concert preset (the same preset as Chopin Op.10 No.4 on the official website): https://www.dropbox.com/s/svo1iu0lqatrkqm/Fandango-D274-Concert-Preset.wav?dl=0

4. CFX 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/efticgfjkab81b3/Fandango-CFX-6-Mics.wav?dl=0

5. Bluthner 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hubw9fcd7drj8be/Fandango-Bluthner.wav?dl=0

6. Bosendorfer Upright 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl4td0jia18ruf9/Fandango-Bosendorfer-Upright.wav?dl=0

Among all 4 Synchron Pianos I like D-274 and CFX equally. Although Bluther and Bosendorfer don't sound bad but these 2 pianos lack the power I want when live playing. Anyway this should give OP an overview of how VSL pianos sound like.

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: newer player] #2960521 03/26/20 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by Galuwen
I tried what`s possible for my limited skills

lol.

I wouldn't mind having such limited skills.


Hi folks,

thx for the flowers: But limited recording skills not playing skills *face palm*.

This is the sample midi file :-) :-) :-).

All the best, wash your hands after playing public pianos and stay healthy

Galuwen

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: carlspost] #2960551 03/26/20 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Galuwen
Originally Posted by carlspost
Thank you Gulewen for your suggestion that we all try rendering the Fandango file. I actually found one which was a live performance. I believe the one you uploaded was more a computer generated midi. ( I got this one from the e-piano competition.)

And Craig Richards your samples are much appreciated.!

Let me know what you think of what I have come up with. I also did a Chopin Etude. If you compare them to my original reference piece on youtube (https://youtu.be/rzbS1VrUTns) I think Im slowly getting closer...?

Here is a link to my two samples. I haven't given any details of what I used to do these.. just to keep things objective. But I will let you know once you have had a listen. (it wasn't anything from VSL)

Fandango: https://soundcloud.com/user-997041856/fandango-mix
Chopin Etude: https://soundcloud.com/user-997041856/fandango-mix

Cheers, Carlspost.


Hi Carlspost,

we only have to define what the outcome of this "micro research" should be.

Reading your post I was thinking that the challenge is to find out how close latest VSTs come to the real thing. Therefore it is important to render all the same file and compare with the Original.

The Midi file contains all vital controller information (also pedals).


Or have priorities changed?


Galuwen

PS.: IMHO it is difficult to compare different pieces sound wise. Your sample piece should also contain "open" parts to compare resonance effects for example.


Thanks Galuwen,

As much as I appreciate the opportunity to compare a similar midi file, I am not as interested in a computer generated performance. Rather a version that is brought about by a real human. I think that is important when searching for a 'realistic' and convincing sound. However, so that we can compare apples with apples, I have also done a version of your midi file. Having said that, the file is not at all bad and I can see a lot of time has gone into it.

Here is the link: https://soundcloud.com/user-997041856/fandango-midi

Let me know what you think.. smile

Re: Will a Virtual Piano ever sound this good? [Re: Harpuia] #2960555 03/26/20 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Harpuia
OP here we go! I have VSL D-274 and have rendered the midi using several different settings.

Recently I purchased the Synchron Piano Bundles from VSL so I have all 4 Synchron Pianos at this point. I just rendered the midi file provided by propianists:

1. D-274 10 mics custom (rendering only. Playing real time will need to increase buffer size thus increasing latency): https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9245kfhzulrovw/Fandango-D274-10-Mics.wav?dl=0

2. D-274 5 mics custom (modified from karvala's setting and I use it for real time playing): https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fw4pyq3oqz2j6e/Fandango-D274-5-Mics.wav?dl=0

3. D-274 factory concert preset (the same preset as Chopin Op.10 No.4 on the official website): https://www.dropbox.com/s/svo1iu0lqatrkqm/Fandango-D274-Concert-Preset.wav?dl=0

4. CFX 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/efticgfjkab81b3/Fandango-CFX-6-Mics.wav?dl=0

5. Bluthner 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hubw9fcd7drj8be/Fandango-Bluthner.wav?dl=0

6. Bosendorfer Upright 6 mics custom: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rl4td0jia18ruf9/Fandango-Bosendorfer-Upright.wav?dl=0

Among all 4 Synchron Pianos I like D-274 and CFX equally. Although Bluther and Bosendorfer don't sound bad but these 2 pianos lack the power I want when live playing. Anyway this should give OP an overview of how VSL pianos sound like.


Thanks you so much Harpuia for these samples. I appreciate your time posting them. They are most helpful.
Im most interested in the 3rd sample (the same preset as Chopin Op.10 No.4 on the official website)

I am curious why it sounds so different from the sample on the VSL website. There seems to be a great deal more reverb in your version. I have had contact with VSL directly and they have confirmed that the Chopin Etude on their website was quote "made with the factory presets, maybe slightly tweaked by our composers. In the case of the Chopin Etude Op 10 no 4: it was the Concert Room-Mix preset that comes with the Standard Library. "

I suspect that the 'slight tweaking' was the reduction in reverb effect. Are you able turn down or reduce the reverb to get a more similar effect? They also sent me a screen shot of the combination of mics used (but Im not sure how to attached it here) From what I see it was just -Room Mix , Condenser and Mid1.
I was surprised that it was just the standard version which they also confirmed has 70 velocity layers just like the full version.

Thank you again!

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