Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Why is VPC 1 so expensive?

Maybe or maybe not. I like the idea of using a sampled piano like Garritan CFX if recording but I still love the play-ability of PianoTeq! I have a friend who still has PianoTeq 2 on his one computer and loads it up to compare against the latest version and wow what a difference to my ears anyway how much the software has progressed.

I imagine that is its strong point; it's made for the job, and goes up to 127. The P515 goes up to 115 or so, and cannot be improved. It does affect the tone through the velocity range differently than it did for my FP50 despite the necessary tweaking. FP50 did go up to 127 and was a good, better controller.
You never think of this stuff when you buy, do you?
But then, I didn't know I was going to get such superb onboard sounds . . . .

Sorry, wasn’t clear enough. I tried the Bechstein demo (inside a 6.7 Pro, not sure if it matters though). Only a few black keys are disabled.

All that being said, just changing the touch curve made a lot of difference and I’m wondering if maybe we sometimes judge Pianoteq too harshly based on not so optimal touch curve. I’ve calibrated my Cybrid exactly to Gartitan CFX and there are some apparent differences in how it responds when connected to Pianoteq.

And VPC1 has a curve for Pianoteq, so maybe that’s also very important.

Do you believe that this...




...is the same as this?





Kind regards,
James
x

Yes.

Seriously It looks like night and day if you judge only by pictures. But it's a pretty simple principle of one lever (the key) pushing another lever (hammer) with no additional mechanisms such as jack, real escapement, double repetition lever, backchecks. This is physics and the only differences between the two actions in the two pictures come from the key and hammer bushing, hammer weight, pivot lengths. But as I said, the basic principle is one and the same and whether the hammer is under the key or whether the key is wooden doesn't change anything.

Ah, so all digital piano actions are the same, because they are not an acoustic piano action?

Hi James,
So Frankfurt Musikmesse 2020 was cancelled due to coronavirus, and probably summer NAMM 2020 will be too.
Please cheer us all up, by telling us Kawai had the new MP12 and VPC2 ready to debut at these shows, but now we can expect a new product announcement later maybe Q3 this year....

In principal the "fold" in a digital action is substantially similar to the unfolded state of a proper acoustic action (or the RM3 action). Straight lever vs. bent lever.

The classic notion of rigid bodies can simplify a physical analysis ... but it can also lead to false conclusions. I think this applies here.

The two don't feel at all alike.

No need for passive aggressive, James I said it's the same principle. Actions can feel different. Digital piano actions feel different from one another, the same way different acoustic actions feel different. But the principle of digital actions is the same. We discuss why/if VPC1 is so expensive. And I said it is expensive because it relies on some obsolete marketing buzzword such as "wooden". Which means nothing. Folded or non-folded.

I've owned a RM3 piano and two RH2 pianos. It's not just a conclusion, it's also experience. Feel is different. But not as different as you describe it with "The two don't feel at all alike". Do you mean one feels like playing a mandolin, whereas the other feels like a piano?

The RM3 Grand2 is MUCH better than the RH3 in my opinion!!! Also better than GF1 and 2... A next step higher you can find only in the Hybrid pianos. If a VPC2 will be realeased I hope the action would not be so much lighter as some users wrote from the new GF3 action (did not try it).

I started this thread because so far I love Pianoteq I am trying, and evaluate hardware options for the permanent setup with P-515.

I'd lineup immediately to buy a MIDI controller with 'hybrid' AvantGrand or NV action for a reasonable price ($3-4K), but I doubt this will happen in near future:
- it may hit sales of more expensive AvantGrand and NV series;
- MIDI controllers are always marketed as very portable. I am afraid that more complex acoustic action is much more sensitive to stress compared to digital one. It might need an expensive shock absorber to protect it against drops.

What about 'stripped off' 'NV10 Light' without audio? I do not need portability, I just don't want to pay for useless electronics.
And if it had hidden cabinet for computer and amplifier - that would steal the show IMHO!

A lot of people here would like this, but it's a case of having your cake and eating it, too. The non-MIDI electronics in a hybrid obviously do not cost $3000-5000; from a materials perspective, it's a fairly incremental cost. But I just don't see anyone (short of CyberGene looking to disrupt the industry) coming to market with a grand action MIDI controller. At the prices hybrids sell for, it's a trivial decision to expand the potential target market 100fold by making a full fledged digital piano.

Every Kawai piano I've played so far felt the same touch.

Accomplishing an Arduino level project leads to someone thinking that he's above Kawai.



So CyberGene you should build your Bulgarian Digital Piano... I'm waiting for it.

And accomplishing nothing leads to someone thinking that he's above everyone else

heck, you can disagree all you want, but more politely pls. CG doesn't say that he knows better than us or Kawai, so please stop attacking him. All we need is a blind test, can you spot the action made of wood? Wood is great, it sounds great, easy to repair, it doesn't swell if it's well burnished and sized. But in a piano we don't touch the wood, and in a digital piano the wooden key don't change the sound anyway, so, in a blind test would you spot the wooden action?

Nope. You got it completely wrong. What said is that the long lever mechanism is the same as the folding action. In other words RM3 is the same as RH...

If you can build all the 88 keys of an upright piano, and repeat that experiment flawlessly to a commercial size, like what Yamaha and Kawai are doing, you'll charge your costumers the same.

On top of that, Kawai has a good understanding of the demand and supply and many many things that no one here has information about them.

Now why VPC1 is expensive? Because Kawai can do things that we can't. They can mass-produce an action that doesn't weigh 100kg and yet feels like an acoustic grand action.

So here is the ultimate resolution when I read responses like this, I say to myself:



I don't think so

Abdol, you still don’t get it, do you? I’m not talking about feel, I’m talking about principle of work.

So, we have a straight wooden stick pushing a hammer towards a triple contact switch. And we have a folded plastic key pushing similar hammer into similar triple contact switch. And one is more expensive than the other. Why? Because it’s wooden. Or are we saying that if hypothetically the straight wooden stick was made of plastic, all else being the same (including key weight), the action would be different?

Ignore the feel. Let’s say RM3 is ten times more realistic than RH3. Would RM3 be more difficult for manufacturing than RH3 if both used plastic key sticks? Would the hypothetical plastic RM3 be more expensive? And why is it wooden then? Because that was the marketing buzz and probably still is, judging by how Roland and Yamaha try to make their keys to look like wooden. Because that’s what sells.

And that’s what I said: it’s more expensive because it’s made of wood. And it’s made of wood because that’s the marketing buzzword.

But I guess you have some apparent difficulties accepting other people’s opinion without attacking them personally.

Whether folded actions feel the same as straight key actions? I think so. There are differences but they are small IMO. Wood doesn’t help. IMO.

Indeed. I think the best folded actions are better, although I haven't tried the GF3.