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There has been many discussions on this forum about WW double beat theory. It seems like he has found a gold mine with this topic. He has recorded dozens of videos on the subject as well as many recordings of different pieces like Beethoven sonatas, Mozart, Chopin using his new recommended tempo. Here is one example of Chopin etude 10.2. What is amazing is that there are plenty of people who do like it. Maybe a supportive argument in favor of Schiff point of view ?

https://youtu.be/57qFQAUR9gk

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You can only consider Wm Winters to have supporting data for Schiff if you consider the ‘supporting data’ of Winters credible. Most here do not.

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Thats great, now I don't need to feel inadequate I can't play it in time

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Originally Posted by dogperson
You can only consider Wm Winters to have supporting data for Schiff if you consider the ‘supporting data’ of Winters credible. Most here do not.


In fact, I was referring to another thread about Schiff supposed opinion (his book is to be published) that modern audience or part of it have somehow lost their ability to recognize a good performance from a bad one. I am quite amazed that a significant number of people do like his performances.

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And here's another - Opus 10 No. 4.
https://youtu.be/SBM-o12dmkM

And another - Opus 25 No. 6
https://youtu.be/FZwW_Gzc6EI

And - Opus 10 No 12
https://youtu.be/zpfdMSlu2oU

And finally - Opus 25 No. 9
https://youtu.be/Tp8XxIQ2l0s

Yikes. crazy


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He really presents it as if he has discovered the sacred graal. I guess he managed to create a new sect of slow playing believers. His channel states: "unchained. Set your inner musician free by reconnecting to our true musical past". No comment !

In 2 hours he will "premier" the moonlight sonata in his so called original tempo. I wonder how slow can he play the first mouvement ?

https://youtu.be/Mdb6ViEMTDM

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Originally Posted by Sidokar
He really presents it as if he has discovered the sacred graal. I guess he managed to create a new sect of slow playing believers. His channel states: "unchained. Set your inner musician free by reconnecting to our true musical past". No comment !

In 2 hours he will "premier" the moonlight sonata in his so called original tempo. I wonder how slow can he play the first mouvement ?

https://youtu.be/Mdb6ViEMTDM

You can bet it will be slow......... grin


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Originally Posted by Sidokar
There has been many discussions on this forum about WW double beat theory. It seems like he has found a gold mine with this topic. He has recorded dozens of videos on the subject as well as many recordings of different pieces like Beethoven sonatas, Mozart, Chopin using his new recommended tempo. Here is one example of Chopin etude 10.2. What is amazing is that there are plenty of people who do like it. Maybe a supportive argument in favor of Schiff point of view ?

https://youtu.be/57qFQAUR9gk


This is my favorite etude and played this way it's horrible. Just my opinion of course.

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Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by Sidokar
He really presents it as if he has discovered the sacred graal. I guess he managed to create a new sect of slow playing believers. His channel states: "unchained. Set your inner musician free by reconnecting to our true musical past". No comment !

In 2 hours he will "premier" the moonlight sonata in his so called original tempo. I wonder how slow can he play the first mouvement ?

https://youtu.be/Mdb6ViEMTDM

You can bet it will be slow......... grin

Yikes - worse than I thought. The first movement is so slow it is difficult to follow the melody line. The most ludicrous part of the 3rd movement starts at 18:07.

This guy may be playing the piano - but he sure as heck isn't making music.


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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by Sidokar
There has been many discussions on this forum about WW double beat theory. It seems like he has found a gold mine with this topic. He has recorded dozens of videos on the subject as well as many recordings of different pieces like Beethoven sonatas, Mozart, Chopin using his new recommended tempo. Here is one example of Chopin etude 10.2. What is amazing is that there are plenty of people who do like it. Maybe a supportive argument in favor of Schiff point of view ?

https://youtu.be/57qFQAUR9gk


This is my favorite etude and played this way it's horrible. Just my opinion of course.

An opinion shared by many.


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It continues to be hard for me to believe anyone thinks he's got something.

I have to say, the only way one can think so is to either be unaware of factual things that immediately refute it, or to not know music well enough to realize that those things refute it. Or, I suppose, to not care about facts or not believe there's any such thing, which I guess is somewhat about.

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Originally Posted by Mark_C
It continues to be hard for me to believe anyone thinks he's got something.

I have to say, the only way one can think so is to either be unaware of factual things that immediately refute it, or to not know music well enough to realize that those things refute it. Or, I suppose, to not care about facts or not believe there's any such thing, which I guess is somewhat about.


I think indeed that there are people who are not interested in facts and rather prefer to believe blindly a guru or believe in fake news. Even the rather poor musical results of WW do not alter their opinion. I also have hard time believing that Wim is sincerely convinced of what he says, especially when he presents some of his arguments. Even other musicians who think double beat is a possibility, do not agree with some of his so called proofs. He is graduated from the Sweelinck conservatory in Netherland and had good teachers. He turned pro and won a few small competitions, so he is a good keyboardist. I think any decent musician can realize that playing the moonlight at that tempo does not make any sense. So i would venture to think that he just found a good topic and is using it cynically for developping his audience. And obviously there are people who follow him !

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Originally Posted by Sidokar
Originally Posted by Mark_C
It continues to be hard for me to believe anyone thinks he's got something.

I have to say, the only way one can think so is to either be unaware of factual things that immediately refute it, or to not know music well enough to realize that those things refute it. Or, I suppose, to not care about facts or not believe there's any such thing, which I guess is somewhat about.


I think indeed that there are people who are not interested in facts and rather prefer to believe blindly a guru or believe in fake news. Even the rather poor musical results of WW do not alter their opinion. I also have hard time believing that Wim is sincerely convinced of what he says, especially when he presents some of his arguments. Even other musicians who think double beat is a possibility, do not agree with some of his so called proofs. He is graduated from the Sweelinck conservatory in Netherland and had good teachers. He turned pro and won a few small competitions, so he is a good keyboardist. I think any decent musician can realize that playing the moonlight at that tempo does not make any sense. So i would venture to think that he just found a good topic and is using it cynically for developping his audience. And obviously there are people who follow him !

I find it interesting that he is surrounded by acolytes that delete and ban any detractors from commenting on his videos. Only Wim's opinions matter to him. It's a bit like a religion.


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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I find it interesting that he is surrounded by acolytes that delete and ban any detractors from commenting on his videos. Only Wim's opinions matter to him. It's a bit like a religion.

Reminds me the devotees of a certain modeled software piano laugh On the other hand you are one of the exceptions 🍻

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/24/20 09:24 AM.

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Hello all,
I haven't posted here in a very long time. It is interesting to read about so many things that have happened during my absence.

I do enjoy some of Winters clavichord recordings, for instance his Clementi sonatas, but I think hose are not played after his new "slow theory".
I have just tried posting a comment on youtube that I don't like the way the étude (referenced in the first posting of this topic) sounds at the speed played, but it did not appear. I guess he is censoring the comments?

Anyway, I am quite surprised to see so many people like it (judging by the many positive comments, which seem the only ones allowed).


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Originally Posted by Calin
I guess he is censoring the comments?

Yes, these are the acolytes I referred to above. His minion delete all comments which are negative, no matter how well grounded and argued they are. Only happy talk is allowed to remain.


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Could this be a psychology experiment? Come up with some made up and apparently ridiculous theory, then start presenting this totally awkward performances and affirm it by only allowing supportive comments (which might even be of dummies/trolls) and see how that leads to an Emperor's new clothes type of mass-confusion.


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Could this be a psychology experiment? Come up with some made up and apparently ridiculous theory, then start presenting this totally awkward performances and affirm it by only allowing supportive comments (which might even be of dummies/trolls) and see how that leads to an Emperor's new clothes type of mass-confusion.


That would be something, but I doubt it :-)
I suspect it is just the age old problem of not accepting any criticism.


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I think he and all these other "whole beat baloney" followers just can't actually play the music in tempo, so they convinced themselves that this is okay.

It all goes out the window when you start applying this to vocal music and winds/brass. Also, they seem to ignore this concert, which lasted for four hours. Look at how many works were performed, and check their timings with various recordings on YouTube/Spotify/whatever, and then calculate the approximate time of an intermission. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven_concert_of_22_December_1808 Definite proof that music was NOT played as slowly as they think.

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Op. 10 No. 2 is firmly in the tradition of the "School of Velocity" genre of 19th century etudes, perhaps more so than any other study by Chopin. The stuff about how everyone disguises their ability to play the RH legato by using the sustaining pedal is baloney. Sounds to me like all he's saying is that HE can't play it up to tempo without pedal.

Seong-Jin Cho uses very occasional, deft touches of pedal for effect, but the rest is completely clean. Does anyone honestly prefer WW's allegedly authentic version to this one? No, I thought not. (And has anyone seen that edition with the inner dyads notated as crotchets/quarter notes?)



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