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Hi all,
in these days I'm trying to learn the Grieg's Nocturne (Op.54 n.4) on my Kawai CN37 (RHIII action). It's a beautiful slow piece with some interesting rythmic patterns, and I thought it was within my reach.
Well, after a few days of practice I learned to play it reasonably well until the part where the time signature changes from 9/8 to 6/8:



Now begin the troubles... While the left hand has to play very large arpeggiated chords, the right hand has to play some fast bichords with your fingers positioned much more deep into the keys (i.e. your fingers will be closer to the fallboard). Being that the sequence of bichords should be played fast, when I try to play this part I feel that the keys are like some very very heavy objects. I clearly feel my arm, my hand and my fingers are much more stressed in this part. So I have great difficulties in playing that sequence of bichords at the speed they should be played and I fear I could hurt my fingers in the process.

This is the first time I seriously felt the need to have longer keys with a much more distant pivot point.

Now the question is: I have to give up learning this piece because my keyboard action is not suited for this type of situations (keyboard limit), or maybe I should try to learn this part very very slowly and then, after much training, I could be able to play it at the intended speed without hurting myself, even on my heavy action with short pivot? I checked some videos of people that play this piece on acoustic pianos and they seem to play that part like the keys were so light...

Disclaimer: I am not a piano teacher and I have not played this piece before. But, IMHO:


This is the reason why people buy the true hybrids: Yamaha AvantGrand N* or Kawai Novus NV10. Or, the Kawai CA99/98/79/78 etc. which have rather long pivot among 'non-hybrid' ones.



I wouldn't advise to train yourself this way. You will be developing the wrong technique. And, when you have to perform on a real acoustic piano (or upgrade to better DPs in future), the keys that are played deep (near the fallboard) will sound unnaturally loud.

It is hard enough to practice to develop the right skills, why practice to develop the wrong skills knowingly?

Osho

So, you suggest to give up learning this piece until I get something better? The thing is that I don't think I will ever upgrade to an acoustic grand piano, and if I will upgrade to a DP with better action it will be in many years from now. I play the piano at home just for personal enjoyment.

I found some other videos where a pianist plays that piece on many DPs with RHIII action (CN25, CN34, ES7, MP7SE) and she seems perfectly at ease even in that (for me) difficult part.

You can check how she plays that part at 1:13 in the following video (you'll see often her right hand fingers will be closer the fallboard):


I see she plays always well with light and heavy actions... It's clear to me that she is a classical trained pianist, she is used to test many different keyboard actions on her youtube channel and I guess she plays the piano from a very young age. I'm a beginner and I started to learn some easy classical piano music just at adult age.

But I don't want to give up on that piece. I think for now I will just give up on the intended regular speed and I'll try to play those bichord parts very very slowly.

Sometimes I think it could be much easier to adapt to a lighter keyboard when you are used to heavier keyboards. The reverse (from light -> heavy) would require weeks of hard training.

Do you work with a teacher? Several times my teacher has told me not to play a piece I was interested in because I didn't have the technique yet. Maybe it's because I'm older and don't heal as fast anymore, but I would not play anything that caused any kind of discomfort like you're describing.

What's the beat/how fast should it be played?

I've never played this, but looking at the passage, it doesn't look like anything a modern high end digital action would limit you on (remember there are plenty of acoustic uprights out there with "short" pivots too). It may just be a matter of acclimation or technique (e.g., raised wrists will place your fingertips farther from the fallboard even for cramped fingering).

I think that is really up to you. We could opine on what are pros/cons of learning it - but you only know how much you love that piece and want to go ahead with it or not. If you have a teacher, I would suggest asking for her/his advice.


Of course, this piece can be played on almost any action by those who are skilled. She looks to be an accomplished player, and has likely been training for. several years. And, it sounds great. How it feels in her fingers, she only knows.

Sounds like a good plan. Another thing to do would be to see how often you run into such situations over the next 6 months. And, if you run into these often, you can save up for an upgrade. There are many good deals in the used market such as craigslist (which is where I bought my first piano with decent action - Kawai CA67). And, if you are not in a rush to upgrade, you can wait out for a good deal.


This is true. A lot of professional pianists prefer heavier action on their acoustic pianos for exactly this reason.

Osho

I'm self taught, I don't have a teacher. He/she probably would have told me to not try to play that piece right now. But after you learn half the piece it's frustrating having to stop because you lack the necessary finger training just to play the small part that follows.

Today I tried to play again that part and I was playing it a little better compared to yesterday but it's better to not put too much stress on my fingers. I have the feel that the short pivot is not the only issue I have there (but it could certainly aggravate the situation).

Have a look at the above video at 1:13. She doesn't play the whole piece, but just the part where I'm having troubles.

I think if you learnt on an acoustic with a short pivot as a child and you continued to play well into adulthood I suspect you will easily have the necessary sense of touch to play a digital with a short pivot pretty much anything.

I think to gain that ability as an adult is harder, I'm not saying impossible but longer than it would as a child.

As an adult returner, with a 40 year break who had passed his level 5 AMEB exam and started with level 6 as a child, I find dealing with the shorter pivot now very hard, very difficult to control with any sensitivity the dynamics. I find this disrupts my playing.

Rather than adding another level of frustration of not being able to have the pieces I'm learning sound how I would like, I have the money and bought a digital piano with a longer pivot, I certainly have greater control of dynamics when forced to play near the fallboard, this may not be for any significant amount of time in any one piece, but when listening back to my playing I was always put off I could always hear this lack of control when forced near the fallboard.

I find it disrupting when playing my teachers piano that I lack this control of dynamics.

I have however come to appreciate my teachers upright acoustic piano in one aspect. It is much easier to play trills than on my MP11SE. Do I take another shortcut and upgrade to a DP with an action which has my teachers piano ease of playing trills and my current DP's ability to play with sensitivity of dynamics near the fallboard.

Unfortunately I can't upgrade, I can't get a piano with a better action into my loft office. I must spend the time practising my technique for playing trills in the hope one day they will sound like what they do when playing my teachers piano. I suspect it will take me sometime to achieve this.

@Osho: thanks for the suggestions. Skilled pianists move so easily those fingers on the keys that you think the keyboard should be very light, but maybe that keyboard is very heavy and they are just very skilled and trained.

In my case it's not a problem of dynamics... It's just that the keys are very hard to press closer to the fallboard, and when you have to play a sequence of bichords near the fallboard (and with a fast tempo) you feel they are even heavier to press (because the same arm+hand has to employ more energy to press more than one key at the same time). That's frustrating at my current level of training.Trills are another of those things that I could not do on my action. But now I can do them (almost) fine, so I'm sure you can do them too. I know there are some DP keyboards where trills are easier to do. I tried a P125 and trills were so much easy to play there compared with my DP... By the way, in this Grieg's piece there are some very long trills to play too.

I think the best action you could get for a digital is that of an hybrid (being that it is just the same action of the acoustic!). Of course not all can get an hybrid DP, for various reasons...

I have not read the entire topic but I think you answered your own question right on your OP: start slowly and gently with yourself (both physically, mentally and emotionally) and progress from that. At least try learning that part for your own delight. Maybe work on one measure, at a very slow beat, paying attention to not stress your joints and muscles and slowly increase the beat to something intermediate and move forward from that.

I wonder what somebody like Morodiene would have to say about that.

Disclaimer: I am not classically trained, not even formally trained and only recently I started taking lessons focusing on pop/improvisation with some techinique exercises. So take my opinion above with a grain or two of salt.

It's definitely a nice segment. I'm sure you'll get it and it would be great to hear you post it being played if you're up to it.

I don't want to step out of bounds since I haven't played this piece, but it doesn't seem like it would present much of a problem for RH3/PHA50/NWX class actions. I've just noticed that more often than not, when people have this exact question, it's more often the case that they're kind of pining for an upgrade and subconsciously looking for a way to justify it, rather than exposing any inherent flaw in the action itself Not that you're doing it here, but it does tend to elicit a bit of a kneejerk reaction in that regard.

I'm one of those who love talking about pivot points and definitely feel that they make a difference, but I think that with practice, it's more of a difference in feel and enjoyment, especially when talking about actions that are already in the "good enough" range, which the RHIII definitely is. There isn't anything I play on my NV-10 (26+cm) that I can't play on the NU1 (~18cm, same as Casio's SHA), and that is about a big a jump as you can get. Where it makes a big playability difference is with Yamaha's GHS, which is significantly shorter, and though I haven't tried it myself, likely the new Casio compact action in the PX-S1000/3000 (but that's another can of worms).

That's what I'm doing, and for sure today I could play a little better and faster than yesterday in that part. But I don't want to rush things. I like the piece very much and I want to learn it all. I think with practice I will get a decent speed over time (probably not as fast as the way the girl played it in the above video). In the worst case I will just play that part at the speed I'm more comfortable.

I'll gladly post it if I'll get the hang of it.

I learned this piece on my ES7 (used to play it from memory but haven’t played it in years, so it’s totally forgotten now) and remember having difficulties with exactly the same passage but I can’t remember feeling it was a pivot length problem. It was rather I generally have difficulties with playing stuff like the right hand figure which involves parallel notes being played with only one hand. Are you sure it’s not that?

Well, that's a synchronization issue that you can definitely overcome with practice.
I think another issue is that to play those bichords, your fingers are often sliding between black keys, and being that the keys on my CN37 have that "Ivory Touch" texture to get more grip, you feel the sliding between black keys makes even more attrition, and as a result you feel the depressing of the key become heavier (this is especially true if your fingers are not slim).

Hi Magicpiano,

I don't know anything about your limitations and neither perhaps do I know about my own without pushing myself and looking for all means to overcome issues.

I think one danger 'psychologically' is the so called 'OK plateau': a chapter and phrase mentioned in Joshua Foer's book: Moonwalking with Einstein. I started to read it after reading a Bill Gates review.

Often the symptoms of reaching the 'OK plateau' is feeling not being able to improve despite best efforts.

I too am unconvinced that the action plays a significant part of your issue.
Maybe there are physiological limitations (hand size, shape, flexibility etc). If so, two options: re-arrange it creatively into something equally impressive (there is no shame in adapting to physical limitations) or 2) look in detail at what's happening when you attempt to play it. In slow motion replay, you should be able to observe the cause of any error. Comparing that with the woman who played it successfully on the RHIII action (or to other renditions) might help you try a change or may demonstrate physiological differences to explain why you have issues.

Obviously, this could be an opportunity to overcome a technique limitation and really propel your skill development forward. Certainly there is little point in assuming that you have physical limitations till you have checked every avenue.

Kind regards,

Doug.

I felt many times that I plateau'd in my piano playing, sometimes for extended period of times.

It always turned out to be not real.

Hi Doug, thanks for your words.
I have to say that after 2 days of practice of that part I'm starting to get the hang of it. I'm very far from a decent playing of it, but now I'm very optimistic over time I can do it. As CyberGene said before, in that part there are other technical difficulties (different bichords alternately played with the same hand) besides the heaviness of the keys near the fallboard.
Probably those other difficulties make me erroneously think that the heaviness near the fallboard is the main problem, when actually the main problem is another, and the heaviness is just something that adds to it. And there are only two measures (the first two of that part) where I have to play the bichords very near the fallboard, so I think it's doable. I have just to practice slowly and precisely and, as usual, speed will come by itself.