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Re: Garritan CFX swapped stereo image
U3piano #2878196 08/10/19 12:08 AM
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After playing with the Garritan CFX today, I noticed that the fix for the binaural patch sounds better than the factory setting, but the KM84/KU100 mics just don't have the deep and rich fulness that the Classic (m49/km184 and 4006/tlm50) combo has. I can't get that really deep rumble in the bass like I can with the classic perspective.

The corrected player perspective is good for light, mellow, relaxing music while the classic perspective can accomplish that and more.

It's nice to have options and I appreciate learning about my instruments.

God Bless,
David


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Re: Garritan CFX swapped stereo image
U3piano #2955906 03/09/20 11:15 PM
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I purchased Garritan CFX about a year ago and one of the reasons I wanted to try it was due to its Binaural recording. I wasn't impressed.
Two weeks ago I was searching around trying to understand why its Binaural recording seemed off when I got to this thread.

So, I decided to run a test:

The two attached files show two simple recordings using the Player mic perspective in Garritan CFX.
In both files key A6 was played a few times.
During the first half of each recording, Garritan was set to the "Performer" stereo image, i.e., high keys should be heard mostly on the right audio channel. Then, half way through the recording Garritan was changed to the "Audience" stereo image, i.e., high keys should be heard mostly on the left channel.
The audio recordings are available here, but you can also see screenshots from each recording below.

The screenshots are from WavePad, in them, the left channel is shown on the upper half of the image, while the right channel is on the lower half.

The first file shows the KU84 "close" mics, you can see the A6 key sound is skewed towards the right channel in the first half of the recording and then it's skewed towards the left channel during the second half of the recording, matching the selected stereo image for the recording (Performer then Audience).
[Linked Image]

The second file shows the KU100 "binaural" mic, you can see the A6 key sound is skewed towards the left channel first and then it's skewed towards the right channel, which is the opposite of what one expects for the selected stereo image (Performer then Audience).
[Linked Image]

So, I decided to send the files and point this out to Garritan's technical support. Here's their response:
Quote
"The Audience and Performer stereo images were designed to use the KM 84 and KU 100 in tandem. The KU 100 is the ambient(room)microphone in this particular perspective so we wouldn't expect it to have the same stereo width as the other microphones. I know that your expectations can be different from our intentions but we intended the KU 100 to be a more intimate perspective of the studio itself."


This did not make much sense to me, so I pointed out the following information from their website:

Quote
Player

The Player perspective offers the experience of playing the CFX, from the piano bench, in Studio One, particularly when reproduced over high quality headphones.

Close – 2 x Neumann KM84 Microphones: This is a straight forward stereo pair placed closely and directly over the hammers. It provides an immediate sound of the piano with little coloration from the room.

Player – Neumann KU100 Dummy Head: The Binaural KU100 Dummy Head was placed directly behind the musicians head. This provides an intimacy to the instrument mixed with the unmistakable sense of playing the instrument in the acoustics of Studio One


I think it very unlikely they placed the KU100 dummy head behind the musicians head facing backwards.
This looks like a programmatic error that could be easily fixed. Or maybe a simple option could be given to the user to change the stereo image independently between mics.

Their updated response:

Quote
The KU100 was designed to be used as an ambient microphone in combination with the KU84 as the close microphone. It has been mixed with that idea in mind


So, I gave up. It looks like their tech support guy is simply repeating a script. Or that project has been abandoned with no further budget allocated for development or support.

Re: Garritan CFX swapped stereo image
Herq #2955922 03/10/20 12:15 AM
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Quote
The KU100 was designed to be used as an ambient microphone in combination with the KU84 as the close microphone. It has been mixed with that idea in mind


This is not true.

The KU100 is designed for binaural recordings. Ambient or not has nothing to do with it.

A binaural recording isn't mixed with anything else. If it is, the result is not binaural anymore. Of course you can mix whatever you want if you like how it sounds, but saying that it is designed to be used that way is simply wrong.

There is no KU84.

Re: Garritan CFX swapped stereo image
U3piano #2955933 03/10/20 01:23 AM
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Hi Herq. You can just run two instances of Garritan CFX simultaneously to easy mix and match mics:

- In the first instance just run say the KM84 from player perspective.

- In the second instance just run say the KU100 from audience perespective

A lot of people here commented on the binaural head and not everyone agrees the perspectives are swapped. I would say a majority agrees. There was debate by the Garritan production team when this was being finalised.

If you run your test on other notes than just A6, you may see different results. I certainly do playing scales up and down some notes or small groups of notes stick out. I have the same issues with a lot of close mic'd pianos so mixing in ambient mics tends to smooth phasing and gain issues.

Also, the live pianist caused placement issues of the dummy head (head was moved back and was blocked by player's body). So the binaural effect is not perfect IMHO.

If the KU100 were perfectly placed, I don't think any other mics should be used as they would spoil the binaural effect.

A few guys here prefer the binaural effect with closed-backed headphones.

Finally, this is a helpful blog post:

https://www.garritan.com/blog/abbey-road-cfx-concert-grand-player-perspective/

edit- I just use the Full Classical default with very minor tweaks and the CyberGene pedalling mod. I tried mixing and matching all the other mics and just like the default so much more.

Re: Garritan CFX swapped stereo image
U3piano #2955953 03/10/20 04:15 AM
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Yeah but running two instances is as much of a hassle as running a Kontakt multi. If you want to change settings, you have to do it in both instances and it's just such a PITA.
I just don't understand why they won't acknowledge their mistake. It's so easy to fix, I imagine it would only take a few hours for one of the technicians or coders.
With that said, I personally don't like the binaural perspective anyway, even if I fix it with two instances. So as far as I'm concerned, it's not much of a loss. Still, it's a pointless stain on an otherwise brilliant piano library.

Re: Garritan CFX swapped stereo image
U3piano #2956007 03/10/20 09:00 AM
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I was one of those who didn't believe the perspective was switched, but that was because I think I was playing it mixed with the close mics; also the binaural effect is so subtle that it's easy to miss entirely, and the effect is a bit inconsistent across the keybed so it depends on what you play.

I tried again recently, with ambient (binaural) only, and now I do think I hear it reversed. But I agree with Grazi above, the binaural isn't the strong point of Garritan CFX, I never really use it.


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