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I am almost afraid to create another X vs. Y piano brand argument which will ultimately end in nothing. But I am a bit astonished regarding the pricing.
When I was a child (in Germany in the late 80s) and started to learn piano I was told that there are two big brand, Steinway and Bechstein, and that those two are the pinnacle of piano craftsmanship. Only much later I learned about Bösendorfer.
I do own a nice parlor grand (Hoffman/Feurich/Euterpe model 190 from Langlau, Germany, built in 1980), but I love to go to used piano stores and check the merchandise. I will probably upgrade to a slightly bigger and better quality piano within the next two or three years.
What I realized is that there is a huge difference in price between Steinway and Bösendorfer on one side and Bechstein on the other. While a really nice or rebuilt Steinway D or Bösendorfer Imperial will cost you at least 70,000 €, a Bechstein E280 can be bought for less than half. Same goes for all sizes. A Steinway A or Bösendrfer 200 will easily cost you 40,000 €, a Bechstein B203 only 20-25,000 €.
Now I ask myself: Is this only because Steinway (the big one that everybody knows) and Bösendorfer (the underdog that only the knowing few know but always love) are better in marketing or is there some real world reason why a used Bechstein sells for considerably less nowadays? Or are Bechsteins more common?
It's largely supply and demand. There's no shortage of very old Bechsteins and Blùthners in many countries.
Of course Steinway is the highest profile piano company in the world nowadays. In Europe there aren't as many old Steinways, and they are often much more expensive than in the US.
Bösendorfers are not all that common anywhere, although those with the Viennese action can be picked up for next to nothing.
The Bechstein E280 is one the nicest pianos ever made IMHO. This is probably a good time to buy one.
Thanks for the answer. Considering that old Bechsteins have alleys been described as being among the top pianos, that is mostly what I assumed.
The reason I asked is that I will move next year a few hundred kilometers away from my current location and I am building a house there at the moment that would be able to accommodate a considerably larger piano than my current place. A Bechstein C-225, Bösendorfer 225 or Steinway C-227 would be zero problem, a full size concert grab like the Bechstein D280, Bösendorfer 275 or Steinway D-274 would also fit though might be a bit to powerful.
I was at solace some time ago that had all of the pianos I mentioned and I really liked the Bechsteins and Steinways (the Bösendorfers not so much - personal taste). I was baffled by the price difference. The sales man told me what you just said but i see always a grain of salt when sales men tell me something.
Stupid auto correct solace = some place. Actually not just some place but a place that is in online marketing long enough to own the domain www.piano.de
I never really considered Bechsteins, because my piano teacher has a model A (185 cm) and I really loathe that thing. But then, some time ago I stumbled about the video below of an old, rebuilt C-223 and thought that this thing is about as nice as 7+ to 8 feet semi concert grands come.
Now I really think about these old C (or maybe even D 280) instruments
Bösendorfer only produces 300 or so pianos a year may be one reason. They use Renner action as does Steinway. I don't have a clue what the guy from Ireland was talking about Vienese action.
Bösendorfer only produces 300 or so pianos a year may be one reason. They use Renner action as does Steinway. I don't have a clue what the guy from Ireland was talking about Vienese action.
A Viennese action was a popular choice in the history of piano making. If I remember correctly it is a lighter action but didn’t project sound as well as other competing action types like an English action. Also I think Chopin much preferred a Viennese action. Since Bosendorfer is an Austrian piano maker I would guess they used a Viennese action in their history.
J & J Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty Casio Privia P230 At least half the waiters in Nashville play better than I
I am almost afraid to create another X vs. Y piano brand argument which will ultimately end in nothing. But I am a bit astonished regarding the pricing.
When I was a child (in Germany in the late 80s) and started to learn piano I was told that there are two big brand, Steinway and Bechstein, and that those two are the pinnacle of piano craftsmanship. Only much later I learned about Bösendorfer.
I do own a nice parlor grand (Hoffman/Feurich/Euterpe model 190 from Langlau, Germany, built in 1980), but I love to go to used piano stores and check the merchandise. I will probably upgrade to a slightly bigger and better quality piano within the next two or three years.
What I realized is that there is a huge difference in price between Steinway and Bösendorfer on one side and Bechstein on the other. While a really nice or rebuilt Steinway D or Bösendorfer Imperial will cost you at least 70,000 €, a Bechstein E280 can be bought for less than half. Same goes for all sizes. A Steinway A or Bösendrfer 200 will easily cost you 40,000 €, a Bechstein B203 only 20-25,000 €.
Now I ask myself: Is this only because Steinway (the big one that everybody knows) and Bösendorfer (the underdog that only the knowing few know but always love) are better in marketing or is there some real world reason why a used Bechstein sells for considerably less nowadays? Or are Bechsteins more common?
They certainly sell quite a few new Bechstein uprights in Paris .I also tried a new Bechstein grand there as well. Being better known is not the same thing as quality.
Last edited by Lady Bird; 03/09/2010:12 PM. Reason: Spelling
Chopin did like Broadwood pianos with the English action and of course the Pleyel piano. Broadwood developed the double escapement. It was Liszt who liked Bösendorfer pianos. Some cynics say because it was the only piano which would survive his playing style.
If you can pardon me saying. My understanding of piano history places the initial development of the double escapement action with the last few Cristofori pianos.
The modern double escapement lies with Sebastien Erard and Henri Herz, who built upon the Cristofori models. Most of the pianos that followed just after Cristofori did not use his action and it took about 100 years to go back to the masters work.
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Sorry about that ! I used to know all these details ! The development of the piano and the two schools of piano making deeply affected the different styles of the composers writing. The English (Clementi in England )and Stein who started the Viennese school.
Bösendorfer still used the Viennese action in the early 20th century. I have no idea how many of their pianos used this type of action, but they are not too difficult to come across.
I recently found out it was Busoni who recommended the Bosendorfer 290 Imperial to be built when he was transcribing Bach's organ works. I would very much like to play a Bosendorfer Imperial just to hit that lowest G the way it should be played in the Chaccone's finale.
I recently found out it was Busoni who recommended the Bosendorfer 290 Imperial to be built when he was transcribing Bach's organ works. I would very much like to play a Bosendorfer Imperial just to hit that lowest G the way it should be played in the Chaccone's finale.
That’s how I would know my piano playing has truly advanced. 88 keys is simply not enough for my advanced repertoire!
J & J Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty Casio Privia P230 At least half the waiters in Nashville play better than I
I recently found out it was Busoni who recommended the Bosendorfer 290 Imperial to be built when he was transcribing Bach's organ works. I would very much like to play a Bosendorfer Imperial just to hit that lowest G the way it should be played in the Chaccone's finale.
That’s how I would know my piano playing has truly advanced. 88 keys is simply not enough for my advanced repertoire!
I think I'm going to make the trek across Florida to the east coast to try a Bosendorfer at a place called Atlantic Music Center. Anyone heard of it?
I recently found out it was Busoni who recommended the Bosendorfer 290 Imperial to be built when he was transcribing Bach's organ works. I would very much like to play a Bosendorfer Imperial just to hit that lowest G the way it should be played in the Chaccone's finale.
Strictly speaking it's not the Imperial that Busoni recommended to be built, but its predecessor. That is a 280cm concert grand from 1890 with 92 keys, which still used to have a Viennese action. I have just played this model which was restored by a friend and he actually built a modern action into this piano, so it feels like modern playing with typical old fashioned Bösendorfer sound.