Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum "Should I Drop the Pitch First?"......

I think I need some clarity. The title of my thread is taken from that marvelous book "Pianos Inside Out" by Mario Igrec. Such a helpful tool for me in so many ways to numerous to list. Many of you have this book and so if you look on Page 128 (2nd column at the bottom) you see my thread title there. If you read under that you see that he gives a new (new to me) way to approach pitch raises and particularly concerning old tired strings. I encourage you to read that paragraph there before you reply if you can.

I have been taught and in fact apply the method of "backing" the string up before going forward sometimes as much as 1/4 turn if I think it needs it. That's what I do and have done for these several years that I've been in the business. It has worked out "okay" by doing that I think but Mario says that by backing the pin up you straighten out the string hence making the old string (I'm thinking especially at the coil) vulnerable when you bring it forward again which is the natural next step. He says to "twist and bend" the top of the pin in toward the sound-board while hitting the note loudly to drop the beat rate just a bit that way "then" go forward.

I would like to incorporate this method because it makes sense first or all but I'm not sure I understand the "twist and bend" part real well although I realise it's not rocket science but the proper procedure is crucial I think.

Can you shed some light on this method and possibly explain "your" method and while your at it give me some clear thoughts on the "twist and bend" idea?

Can't help you with the"Twist and Bend" but maybe Jack LaLanne could.

I most generally bump the end of the tuning hammer to lower the pitch before tuning a string. First, the lowered pitch is proof positive I am on the right string - it still happens... Second, I get some info on how that string/pin/friction/points/false beats/whatever behaves as I start bringing it back up so I can decide how best to manipulate things for the right pitch and best stability. For instance, did it really SNAP when bumping it down? - jumpy pins - Did the pitch lag far behind when bringing it up? - heavy bearing friction - If tuning a unison, is there a double beat like wawa-waaa-waaa-wawa? - got a false beat - gonna really listen to how it sound least bad on the way up so I can leave it there on the way back down when setting the pin. How hard is it to more the pin and is it obvious that the foot moves separately from the head? - might be able to use it that advantage... Third, I usually need some"room" to be able to set the pin. Hard to explain...

But if I am just trying to move it the slightest bit, I can be stumbling in the dark until I figure out what is going on. Maybe its just me.

Jeff, I wish I knew simply what you've forgotten over the years that alone would get me out of a lot of jams that I have to "experiment" through.....Jack LaLanne (funny) .....So, are you telling me you "never" back a pin up when doing a major pitch raise, you simply bump or kind of thump the end of your hammer and that's sufficient then you proceed forward? Is that what you are saying?

Most of my pitch raises use a semi-impact method. Carbon fiber stiff hammer nearly vertical on uprights. Tap left ONLY enough to hear/see the pitch move. Like Jeff said, it makes sure the lever is on the right pin but also lets me know that the string moved through the upper friction points before palm slapping it up to the overpull amount.

Ron Koval

Ron why do you "palm slap" the hammer? I do this also but not consistently as it appears you do. What are your reasons for doing this as I'm sure you have some theories. "Tap left ONLY" is this a backwards slap as it seems like it. Wish I had a wee video of this idea, do you know of a utube maybe.

I know it is said to lower the pitch down with rusty strings and/or a large pitch raise in order to keep from breaking strings. Maybe so, I dunno... Seems when they wanna go, they go... You mentioned backing off a quarter turn - that's extreme, like Jack LaLanne doing "superman pushups." When I do a major pitch raise, I do bump the pitch down, but I think really from habit, or maybe I think it loosens up the pins. Maybe it does? But when I do a "blind" pitch raise (occasionally...) then I do not bump down, just give them each a 21.25 cent yank up.

For explanation of "twist and bend" see the video here, starting 2:10
https://www.levitantuninglevers.com/professional-1

I have to admit I NEVER do any of these backward tricks. First thing I do is lube all felt and metal counter bearing points. The lube I use is from Jon Page in MA. I used to use protek...but no more. Then I start pulling. I do not pull more than 10 cents sharp...ever (well maybe a little more occasionally). I rarely have a broken wire. I always warn the client ahead of time of the possibility of breakage. My rule of thumb is: 1 snap...fix it, 2 snaps...fix it, 3 snaps...re-assess the situation. If the wire can't take the tension it's time to retire the thing or do major improvements. Remember that most people live in a brainwashed state thinking their piano was designed to last a century...hogwash...and I make sure they know the truth.

Since I have been lubing CB points, many tuning "problems" have gone away.

Pwg

Hear Hear, about the lubing!

What's the lube from Jon Page? I was delighted to meet Jon at MARC in 2011 (how time flies!), and later he very kindly sent me an item, gratis, that I had been enquiring about. Nice fellow.

Oh, and hear hear, also, about pianos not lasting a century!

The theory is that a quick motion will assist pulling the string through friction points, while a slow pull tends to increase the tension close to the pin, sometimes enough to result in a break. My usual technique is more towards slow pull...

The last string that snapped at the pin while tuning using a slow pull was so tight under the pressure bar, it was difficult to get the remainder of the string out... I used the slap technique on the rest of the piano.

Ron Koval

AFAIC it's the best. And not nearly as costly as protek. Of course YMMV. You can contact him at jonpage@pianocapecod.com

Pwg

Peter, what is the name of this oil you're getting from Jon Page, you've given a lot of acronyms (looks like) but no name. I'm interested. Also, I wonder if this is available in Canada?

Duane, the abbreviations are not acronyms for the lubricant. AFAIC is "As far as I'm concerned" and YMMV is "Your mileage might vary" - i.e. your experience/opinion might be different from mine.

I got that David although I had to look the letters up on line lol.....may have expressed it wrong....but I'm searching for the "name" of the lubricant itself ....cheers.

I think he just calls it CBL for CounterBearing Lubricant.

Pwg

Maybe CBD oil would work just as well. You know, Counter Bearing De-frictionizer. Seems to be good for just about everything else!

Jeff, just remember that CBD Oil has side effects....one of which is diarrhea....sooo, be very careful with your customers piano if your using CBD...you don't want your name to smell worse than it might already, eh?

But would anyone notice if I used it only on "crappy" pianos?

How did we get off in this lane, Jeff....I have no answer other than to say there's no gettin ahead of you I have found.....

Now, to the point at hand the Lubricant afore mentioned is called Counter Bearing Lubricant (CBL) as Peter has indicated. I have been in contact with Jon Page and am hoping to get my hands of some of his product because if there's an "angle" for improvement then I want to be there. Unfortunately, the likely hood of getting it in East Coast Canada is slim as usual. Here's hoping someone will read this and know of a way to get it in my mailbox or other delivery form.

Duane,

You could drive to the cape and buy a year's supply 😉

Seriously though, if you can't get it, just use protek as the next best.

Pwg