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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
LarryK #2954082 03/04/20 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
I never meant that all criticism of Casio should be dismissed because Casio is building cheap keyboards but that the criticism has to be weighed with the price in mind.

People have a tendency to bash everything. It’s not fair to dispense $2k worth of criticism, based on more expensive keyboards with better actions, on a $699 keyboard.


Yes, but that Casio action compared to a FP-10 or FP-30 action which are even cheaper doesn't seem to fare well.

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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2954084 03/04/20 05:05 AM
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In all fairness to Casio, my DIY grand piano action (from an unknown piano but most probably a baby grand) has similarly higher downweight at black keys compared to the white keys. The balance rail of black keys is of course offset to the white one but apparently there’s some sacrifice. However it doesn’t have any counterweights (although it has whippen assist springs to do similar job). I also measured my N1X and there’s no such discrepancy but then it’s also full with counterweights in every key.

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/04/20 05:05 AM.

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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
CyberGene #2954316 03/04/20 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
In all fairness to Casio, my DIY grand piano action (from an unknown piano but most probably a baby grand) has similarly higher downweight at black keys compared to the white keys. The balance rail of black keys is of course offset to the white one but apparently there’s some sacrifice. However it doesn’t have any counterweights (although it has whippen assist springs to do similar job). I also measured my N1X and there’s no such discrepancy but then it’s also full with counterweights in every key.


The title of the thread is wrong, as the black keys in the video are much lighter than the white ones. shocked

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2954331 03/04/20 10:44 PM
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Holy cow you're right! I maintain that a mod came along and changed it in order to sow discord and play us against each other.


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2954341 03/04/20 11:59 PM
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Good to see everyone diffusing the conversation with lightheartedness smile

I contributed a comment on the Casio forum about this. All the forums seem to have lit up with this topic! James certainly knows how to create waves smile
As we know on here, this is not the first time........

I recently bought a PXS3000 for a road piano and controller, which I left some impressions on the Casio forum. I think it's terrific for its compactness and budget. This topic is a non issue to me. The more I think about it, the more I think it is a deliberate design spec to get such a compact weighted action to play well. And in my opinion, it does play well.
I also currently play a Kronos RH3, Montage Balanced Hammer Action, a Kawai MP11SE among others........and a Kawai Acoustic Grand. The acoustic aside, I enjoy the Casio action second to my MP11SE.

I just think subjective reviews are pointless, given that everyone will view their experience differently. I bought the S3000, because I tried it for myself!


What is interesting to me, is that after viewing James video, I tried to focus on the difference on my own keys. I could just feel the difference when trying it with the keyboard off. When I turned it on and experienced the audio feedback from the sound, I had trouble even detecting it.
It's amazing how the psycho acoustic feedback can trick your brain into something smile

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2954419 03/05/20 10:44 AM
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Without clicking on the link (it looks like clickbait), I can say some "different weight of black keys to white keys" is completely a non-issue for me, as I think quite a normal consumer who wants or practice on it. I have not noticed anything about a different weight of those keys.

On the other hand, I can notice the greater stiffness near the fallboard, which while being a total non-issue for me personally, I can see how it could annoy some other people in relation to the white keys. (The black keys are fine with this).

As for the obsessive discussion of things like key weight in this subsection of the forum and how it might be perceived. it's a bit like the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

I think this is a similar dynamic to what happens in political discussion forums, where people of a similar personality all gather together by self-selection, and then it can seem like the most important thing in the world. So if the forum selects for people who are very sensitive to a certain type of "imperfection", then this imperfection can loom larger and larger.

Last edited by 3am_stargazing; 03/05/20 10:54 AM.

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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
3am_stargazing #2954420 03/05/20 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
CyberGene #2954423 03/05/20 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?

Yes, it reads rather like this.

Another explanation is that people are unsatisfied with digital pianos in general (as if they could only sleep on a sofa, and could never have a real bed). So they jump from one to another restlessly, and their brains become more and more attuned to different imperfections of trying to sleep on a sofa.

The result is that you become an expert (or connoisseur) of the feeling of different digital pianos, and are then critical of things which are not up to the standards of the higher priced products. While someone who has not sensitized themselves to these imperfections (like me), can be easily impressed by them.

As for PX-S1000. It does a great job, as a very simple practice instrument, to people who are not particularly sensitive to the imperfections of keyboards in this price range. It's possible that the greater stiffness of the white keys could be annoying - this depends on how the person plays.

It's not a real piano, it's a value for money piece of consumer electronics, which can be used for practicing piano. However, strangely I find this $500 electric keyboard easier to practice on (with headphones), than some of the pianos I find in practice rooms. It's always in tune, all the keys work well, I can practice my kind of repertoire on it fine (without much conscious adjustments), it's reliable, and attractive and compact. And it can trick my brain late at night, with open-back headphones on, so that I feel like I am playing on a piano. So that would be my review.

Last edited by 3am_stargazing; 03/05/20 11:08 AM.

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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
CyberGene #2954465 03/05/20 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


They just have experienced the need for better action as their repertoire expands. If one's repertoire never demands that one plays close to the fall-board, the cheaper actions will do just fine.

Osho


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Osho #2954514 03/05/20 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


They just have experienced the need for better action as their repertoire expands. If one's repertoire never demands that one plays close to the fall-board, the cheaper actions will do just fine.

Osho

Maybe, but I get the feeling sometimes that there must be some people here who play about 70% of the time near the fallboard, since we hear so much about it. Now I a have a PX-870, which I'm told is difficult to play near the fallboard (though it doesn't seem any more difficult than it does on the average upright). But let's assume it is. Is it worth $3k or $4k more to me to be able to play with a little more ease a few millimeters up the key? No. But it may make someone feel better about *their* $4k or $5k DP, which is fine.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
rmns2bseen #2954527 03/05/20 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen

Maybe, but I get the feeling sometimes that there must be some people here who play about 70% of the time near the fallboard, since we hear so much about it. Now I a have a PX-870, which I'm told is difficult to play near the fallboard (though it doesn't seem any more difficult than it does on the average upright). But let's assume it is. Is it worth $3k or $4k more to me to be able to play with a little more ease a few millimeters up the key? No. But it may make someone feel better about *their* $4k or $5k DP, which is fine.


I'd like to see the repertoire that requires playing near the fallboard 70% of the time! I don't think I'd like to play it though.

The good news is you don't need to spend $4-5k to get an action that has a longer pivot (and I doubt many would consider that their primary upgrade reason). You can get something in the same price range (or even cheaper) than a PX-870, so there is at least a much larger population of players who get to feel better about their DP smile


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2954534 03/05/20 04:57 PM
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I owned a PX-S3000 for over 6 months. Luckily, I sold it quickly and moved on as I had many negative issues besides the action. I wonder why Casio, who had already conquered the light weighted action piano, thought it was necessary to make the thinnest DP? Kind of rhetorical cause I'm sure it was to differentiate from their competition. I'll end with I love my Casio calculator watch.


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2954547 03/05/20 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 36251
I'll end with I love my Casio calculator watch.
That's another odd thing I've noticed. It's fairly common to see Casio berated as just a consumer electronics company. So on what basis are we supposed to assume that Yamaha and Kawai are going to produce good electronics?

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
rmns2bseen #2954578 03/05/20 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


They just have experienced the need for better action as their repertoire expands. If one's repertoire never demands that one plays close to the fall-board, the cheaper actions will do just fine.

Osho

Maybe, but I get the feeling sometimes that there must be some people here who play about 70% of the time near the fallboard, since we hear so much about it. Now I a have a PX-870, which I'm told is difficult to play near the fallboard (though it doesn't seem any more difficult than it does on the average upright). But let's


No one plays 70% of the time near the fallboard. It is just that when you have to and the piano doesn't respond to your intentions (especially p or pp near the fallboard), it is frustrating. How frustrating it is and how valuable spending extra money to get rid of this is really dependent on each individual.

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 03/05/20 06:41 PM.

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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Osho #2954754 03/06/20 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


They just have experienced the need for better action as their repertoire expands. If one's repertoire never demands that one plays close to the fall-board, the cheaper actions will do just fine.

Osho

I have a PX‑S1000 and use it to practice mostly "advanced repertoire" (pieces categorized grades 6-8 above), at night on headphones.I play on acoustic pianos in the day.

The stiffer (slower feeling) white keys near the fallboard can either be annoying, or not annoying, depending on the pianist and what they are sensitive to. It's not related to repertoire.

For me, and the way I use this keyboard to practice, it only is noticeable if I tune into it specifically. I.e. my playing adjusts without noticing it.

With more advanced repertoire, your hands are often moving more automatically, with more momentum, and more based on muscle memory, so the action can become less noticeable to you.

On the other hand, there might be people whose technique or preferences, make them more sensitive about the keys becoming stiffer than I am, and who should look at other options for that reason.

In addition, if I try improvising on this keyboard, then I notice the stiffness of the keys near the fallboard (which could be annoying). When you are improvising, you are making unplanned changes of direction more often, and that's when you notice the stiffness of the keys near the fallboard much more. Similarly if you are sightreading.

I haven't found any other problems with PX‑S1000, except that it sounds bad if you don't use headphones (but I only use it to practice at night with headphones), and there isn't a digital display so inputting the metronome numbers can be a fiddle.

-------------------------


Negatives of PX‑S1000 can be summarized simply:
1. It has stiff (slower feeling) keys near the fallboard. Which could annoy some pianists, depending on their preferences.
2. You need to play it on headphones.
3. You cannot input metronome numbers without it being a bit fiddly.
4. The keybed bottoms out harder than on an acoustic, so if you have to adjust as if you play for hours you could tendonitis. (But this is common in other digital pianos as well).

Possibly 5:
5. You need to adjust the touch setting every time you turn it on (it resets itself).

And positives of the PX‑S1000
1. Sound is really good on headphones.
2. Keys are fine for practicing, as they are touch sensitive, and have a similar weight to a real piano (I imagine for most piano students, including myself - you could put these in practice rooms if you wanted to save money, and the students would be fine with it).
3. Very good value for money, looks very attractive, compact, you can pack it in the car (so students can take it to college accommodation with them). Doesn't have to be tuned. Reliable. Good build quality. Etc.

I'm not even sure the negatives make much sense, when this is a $500 keyboard. (I just bought a pair of headphones which cost $400, and my budget studio monitors cost $400).

My review of this as an owner is 5 stars out of 5, and I was shocked at how good it is for $500 (for perspective, the Nintendo Switch release price was $300).


Last edited by 3am_stargazing; 03/06/20 10:00 AM.

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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
rmns2bseen #2954763 03/06/20 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing
As for the obsessive discussion of this forum. I wonder if you have read the story "The Princess and the Pea"?

So, are we saying that people who purchase anything more expensive than PX-S1000 are OCD-driven princesses?


They just have experienced the need for better action as their repertoire expands. If one's repertoire never demands that one plays close to the fall-board, the cheaper actions will do just fine.

Osho

Maybe, but I get the feeling sometimes that there must be some people here who play about 70% of the time near the fallboard, since we hear so much about it. Now I a have a PX-870, which I'm told is difficult to play near the fallboard (though it doesn't seem any more difficult than it does on the average upright). But let's assume it is. Is it worth $3k or $4k more to me to be able to play with a little more ease a few millimeters up the key? No. But it may make someone feel better about *their* $4k or $5k DP, which is fine.

It's funny, because I'm often annoyed when a piano I want to practice on is out of tune, or if some keys don't work, or if the sound is very muffled, or too loud. But things like stiffness of keys increasing near the fallboard isn't something I am very sensitive to.

That said, different people are sensitive to different things, and have different pet peeves. Me and you might just be insensitive to this issue, which affects other pianists much more. I don't understand those other pianists assuming this is something that all pianists are sensitive to (unless they have conducted a survey) though.

Last edited by 3am_stargazing; 03/06/20 10:16 AM.

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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
LarryK #2954871 03/06/20 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Gombessa


Interesting, I haven't heard this claim before. Anyone who tested/own this can confirm? Also interesting is in his original review, he also spent a lot of time talking about how the short pivot made this especially difficult to play.

He also mentions at 7:45 that there is a horrible "piano forum out there where every discussion devolves into arguments and people insulting each other by the second page. It's almost kind of sad." Is he talking about....us??? Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!


He’s trolling us! I suppose he never wades into the fray here, he just holds forth from his lofty perch on YouTube. It’s almost kind of sad. I’d rather read through a good argument here than sit through one of his tedious videos. Is going to get a job or is he going to be hectoring us for the rest of his life?

At least on PianoWorld, we have threads about great works of Russian literature, led by a professor of Russian literature, to break up the tedium of always talking about pianos and keyboards, lol.


+1

He's starting to sound like a conceited little brat.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
DiarmuidD #2954875 03/06/20 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DiarmuidD
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Gombessa


Interesting, I haven't heard this claim before. Anyone who tested/own this can confirm? Also interesting is in his original review, he also spent a lot of time talking about how the short pivot made this especially difficult to play.

He also mentions at 7:45 that there is a horrible "piano forum out there where every discussion devolves into arguments and people insulting each other by the second page. It's almost kind of sad." Is he talking about....us??? Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!


He’s trolling us! I suppose he never wades into the fray here, he just holds forth from his lofty perch on YouTube. It’s almost kind of sad. I’d rather read through a good argument here than sit through one of his tedious videos. Is going to get a job or is he going to be hectoring us for the rest of his life?

At least on PianoWorld, we have threads about great works of Russian literature, led by a professor of Russian literature, to break up the tedium of always talking about pianos and keyboards, lol.


+1

He's starting to sound like a conceited little brat.


I agree that he is getting very close to crossing that line.


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2954886 03/06/20 03:22 PM
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It may be an ad hominem thing but I did not like the first video of his I watched (actually, I stopped watching pretty quickly), AFAIR a comparison between two brands (RD2000 and Nord, I think). To me he just did not seemed professional (and he seemed overrate himself) so I did not waste time watching his other videos.


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
3am_stargazing #2954890 03/06/20 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing

I'm not even sure the negatives make much sense, when this is a $500 keyboard. (I just bought a pair of headphones which cost $400, and my budget studio monitors cost $400).


I'm sure it works both for practice and for gigs, seen good pianists use it without complaining. But I think both the key action and the speaker sound are worst in the 500-bucks class. It stands out by being slim, but I think this is too much of a design compromise.

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