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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
P W Grey #2951620 02/25/20 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Well Matt...

Have you aligned the jacks to the knuckle cores AND adjusted the rep levers for proper interface with the knuckles? Along with this comes an initial regulation of the rep springs (they must be in the ballpark).

Gotta have the above before anything else has a chance to work. 😨

Pwg


To the best of my knowledge, I have completed all of that. My apologies for not mentioning that in the previous post. While you do mention that, it brings up some other questions which I was going to address later.

Those being how jack position effects to smoothness of the keys in slower playing. I have noticed that a few of the bass notes felt a bit 'clunky' on slow depress of the key. So, I slowly moved the jack towards the keys and see that the feeling improved. So, I pulled the action out and see that the jack position is slightly forward of the inscribed lines on top of the repetition lever. I assume this is okay because the action feels better to the player vs the jack being exactly on the inscribed line?


1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2951762 02/26/20 08:53 AM
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Yes, that is okay as long as it does not "cheat" on any blow. There is wiggle room in that adjustment. You just never want the jack to be "behind" the knuckle core.

Bad as to interfacing...when you depress the heel of the jack you observe an ever so slight "wink" of the hammer. This shows that the rep lever is 'strong enough but not too strong to support the shank by itself (with spring) yet at the same time the jack is in CONTACT with 'but not supporting' the shank.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
P W Grey #2951779 02/26/20 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Yes, that is okay as long as it does not "cheat" on any blow. There is wiggle room in that adjustment. You just never want the jack to be "behind" the knuckle core.

Bad as to interfacing...when you depress the heel of the jack you observe an ever so slight "wink" of the hammer. This shows that the rep lever is 'strong enough but not too strong to support the shank by itself (with spring) yet at the same time the jack is in CONTACT with 'but not supporting' the shank.

Pwg


Do you happen to know of a video that illustrates this wink aspect? I'm not sure what you mean?

Do you have any input on what should be done with the key dip vs hammer blow distance? I feel like I will need to sacrifice one setting to meet the other? As it stands right now, blow distance is set to 46mm and the key dip is around 10.5mm.


1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2951788 02/26/20 09:45 AM
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Matt, this video shows it. He calls it rolling the jack. It means the jack is slightly above the rep lever window so that when you move the jack, it pushes the knuckle a slight amount so the hammer "winks" or barely moves a bit. No movement at all, and the jack is too low.


Last edited by Emery Wang; 02/26/20 09:47 AM.

Daily driver: Kawai MP11SE
First crush: Kawai GL10
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2951796 02/26/20 10:01 AM
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That video really helps to understand things. I can understand more why it's important to set the jack height in relation to the repetition lever now. I did take some pictures when I was doing this. I'll upload then add them to this thread.


1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2951798 02/26/20 10:09 AM
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Here are some pictures I took when I initially set the jack / repetition lever. Yamaha manual calls for .100-.200 mm. I set it at .200 mm as seen in the pictures. However, I will go back through and follow the method that Peter suggested and the video shown by Emery.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by TurboMatt; 02/26/20 10:09 AM.

1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2951949 02/26/20 05:49 PM
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Just took this video regarding what Peter stated and the video Emery shared. I think I have it wrong?



1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2952128 02/27/20 08:23 AM
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Matt,

You've got the right idea, but that looks like a little too much "wink". Looks more like a "blink". Jack is a shade too high in relation to the rep lever. The hammer should just barely move.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
P W Grey #2952173 02/27/20 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Matt,

You've got the right idea, but that looks like a little too much "wink". Looks more like a "blink". Jack is a shade too high in relation to the rep lever. The hammer should just barely move.

Pwg


Ah, ok. So I'm in the right area but a bit too much height on the jack? I'll pull the action tonight and go over this again. So I do want the hammer to drop slightly as I move the jack spoon?


1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2952249 02/27/20 12:33 PM
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Hi Matt. The jack on my piano is similar to the one in the video, it's an L-shaped piece. As I move the end of the L up and down, that causes the jack to move forward and back in the window. If jack is low, then the top of the jack never hits the knuckle, hence no hammer wink. In that case you'd adjust the rep lever button to lower the rep lever. As the rep lever lowers, the rep lever window descends onto the jack. Once it gets low enough, the jack protrudes a bit from the window. Since the knuckle rests on top of the rep lever window area, any protrusion of the jack top from the window will hit the knuckle, causing the hammer to rise a bit when you move the jack back and forth. The idea is to have the jack slightly higher than flush with the top of the window so there is minimal movement of the hammer when the jack is moved back and forth.

If adjusted right, the hammer will rise a little when the jack top hits the bottom of the knuckle then come back down, but it never goes down lower than it was.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 02/27/20 12:37 PM.

Daily driver: Kawai MP11SE
First crush: Kawai GL10
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2952259 02/27/20 12:53 PM
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Thank you for the clear explanation on how the jack is supposed to be regulated. My initial thinking was to adjust the let off button. Now that you explained it, it makes much more sense. I'll work on this later this evening to see if I can get this correct.


1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2953288 03/01/20 02:13 PM
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Okay, I'm back again looking for some assistance. I've spent most of the weekend working on the action and trying to get things perfect. I think I have things correct as far as the specs and settings. The only thing I'm really thinking is after touch could be a bit more perfect? If so, I would suspect I need to set hammer blow distance at 43-44mm and go from there? Please take look at the video and let me know what you guys are thinking.

A few notes:

1.) Key dip is at 10.25 mm
2.) Hammer blow distance is at 45mm
3.) Let off is at 2mm
4.) Drop is 'around' 2mm. This is much harder for me to measure correctly.



1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2953329 03/01/20 04:27 PM
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Matt,

Looks pretty good to me. Aftertouch is somewhat a matter of debate, but clearing the knuckle is an absolute, and not jamming against the cushion inside the rep lever is another absolute. Technically, anywhere in between can be considered "good". And in the final analysis judged by how the whole thing plays and feels to you the pianist.

Now if you want to play around with it to get the feel of "more" aftertouch vs "less" aftertouch, just raise the hammer line 2-3mm and play it. See what you think. This will give you more AT without having to mess with changing FR punchings. If you prefer that feel enough...change it at the FR. If not, go back to where you started. Or...compromise in between.

Personally, I would probably like what you have.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2953355 03/01/20 05:34 PM
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Okay, that's great news! I'm glad things look close. I just went back through and re-checked drop and aftertouch on my table. I'm going to install the action back in the piano shortly and try to measure drop and correct as needed. It looks like drop should be around 4mm from the string.

After I am able to figure that out, I will try what mentioned to decrease or increase aftertouch. This almost seems crazy as I'm almost done....woohoo! This is one of those projects that I never thought would end.


1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2953519 03/02/20 08:20 AM
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Matt,
I'm not sure if you did this or not, but let-off has to be a little wider in the bass and low tenor. Let-off has to occur outside the the vibrating band of the string or unwanted noises will occur.


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2953539 03/02/20 09:14 AM
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I did do that, as it was previously recommended. I initially set the bass at 2mm then backed the jack button off around 1/3 of a turn.

Some good news; I did play the piano some last night and wow, what a difference!!! I'm absolutely astounded at how different it is now! You can play soooo soft now! It's absolutely shocking at the level of control now. Hands down a completely different piano. Now I can focus on getting back into lessons soon and start learning.

Now some bad news. The hammers are obviously pretty bad and need to be replaced. The sound on some of the notes is almost like a toy music box. I'm hoping a tune can help some of that however I know that it's most likely because there is almost no felt on the hammer tips. Also, I have a few notes that are double playing with a very soft touch. I'll take a look at the repetition springs and double check let off.

Last edited by TurboMatt; 03/02/20 09:17 AM.

1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2953573 03/02/20 11:33 AM
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You might as well try some voicing before you replace the hammers. Most people seem to be too conservative when it comes to needling hammers, having read that hammers can be ruined by too much needling. But if you are going to replace them anyway, perhaps they are hammers that are ruined by too little needling!


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Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
BDB #2953595 03/02/20 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
You might as well try some voicing before you replace the hammers. Most people seem to be too conservative when it comes to needling hammers, having read that hammers can be ruined by too much needling. But if you are going to replace them anyway, perhaps they are hammers that are ruined by too little needling!


You're probably right about that. Since they are basically trash at this point, I suppose they couldn't be much worse! Does anyone know of any videos I could follow to give it a shot? As a disclaimer, I absolutely will be replacing the hammers/shanks when the funds permit. So for now, it's worth trying to help these old ones until then.


1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2953609 03/02/20 02:00 PM
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The best source of online instruction I've found is Jim Busby's Piano Technician Tutorials. Some videos are free on YouTube, but more are available if you buy his ebooks. The one on voicing does a great job of explaining how to voice and what tools to use, and also goes into string mating which must be right before voicing. I also bought his book on dampers, as regulating those was a complete mystery to me.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 03/02/20 02:02 PM.

Daily driver: Kawai MP11SE
First crush: Kawai GL10
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Re: DIY Grand Piano Action recondition and regulation
TurboMatt #2953850 03/03/20 09:14 AM
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I just watched a few of his free videos on YouTube. This one is particularly interested to me, as I feel this when I play my piano very soft and slow. What he describes as 'shelf' I would describe as escapement or let off. All the same thing? Anyway, I'm going to have Noah from Piano Craft come out to my house soon to tune and inspect my amateur regulation work. It will be a few weeks before they can make it out though. I will report back the results once he spends a few hours on the piano.

Here is the video I described earlier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjW4hnjSeSY&t=336s

Thanks,
Matt


1980 Yamaha G5 Grand Piano
1924 Chickering Baby Grand
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