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Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
#2953738 03/02/20 09:50 PM
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Interesting, I haven't heard this claim before. Anyone who tested/own this can confirm? Also interesting is in his original review, he also spent a lot of time talking about how the short pivot made this especially difficult to play.

He also mentions at 7:45 that there is a horrible "piano forum out there where every discussion devolves into arguments and people insulting each other by the second page. It's almost kind of sad." Is he talking about....us??? Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953739 03/02/20 10:04 PM
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He's right!

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953744 03/02/20 10:35 PM
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About the keys, or about us? smile


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953747 03/02/20 11:00 PM
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I will say that James' is one of the more objective reviews I've seen of this family of keyboards.

For whatever reason, all the other professional reviews, video and written, all seem to be suspect in that they are nearly 100% praise and non-critical. One might suspect that Casio marketing is behind them, although this could be the reality for most reviews.

It would be great to have 3rd party confirmation of the key weight delta on a different sample.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953749 03/02/20 11:24 PM
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I've never played one, so I couldn't say. But it would be more helpful to do the same test on all comparable makes as a contrast, as well as on an actual quality acoustic piano.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953752 03/02/20 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!


🤗

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953757 03/03/20 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa


Interesting, I haven't heard this claim before. Anyone who tested/own this can confirm? Also interesting is in his original review, he also spent a lot of time talking about how the short pivot made this especially difficult to play.

He also mentions at 7:45 that there is a horrible "piano forum out there where every discussion devolves into arguments and people insulting each other by the second page. It's almost kind of sad." Is he talking about....us??? Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!


He’s trolling us! I suppose he never wades into the fray here, he just holds forth from his lofty perch on YouTube. It’s almost kind of sad. I’d rather read through a good argument here than sit through one of his tedious videos. Is going to get a job or is he going to be hectoring us for the rest of his life?

At least on PianoWorld, we have threads about great works of Russian literature, led by a professor of Russian literature, to break up the tedium of always talking about pianos and keyboards, lol.

Last edited by LarryK; 03/03/20 12:56 AM.
Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953758 03/03/20 01:13 AM
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It's nice to have someone _actually measure something_ -- it makes it much harder to get into religious arguments.

At 0:25, he says that the _black_ keys are much lighter than the _white_ keys. And he proves it. But . . .

There's another problem with this action:

. . . It has a rather short pivot, according to reports.

So, as your finger moves up the key (toward the fallboard), the downweight increases. That's true for both white and black keys.

But, because of the mathematics that govern levers (smart man, Archimedes!):

. . . If the pivot length of the black keys is shorter than the pivot length of the white keys,

. . . . as you move your finger toward the fallboard,

. . . . . the downweight for the black keys increases _faster_ than the downweight of the white keys.

(Note that the downweight, at the pivot, is infinite.)

It is possible (I haven't tested it) that, at "typical finger-contact position", the downweights of the black and white keys are equal.

. . . That may have been a deliberate design decision by Casio.

James hasn't tested that, yet. But I'll put a comment against his video . . .

To put it into IT language, the lighter downweight of the black keys, at their ends, may be a "feature", not a "bug".

I don't know how acoustic pianos behave. I know that the pivots of the black keys are in a different line (further toward the strings, on a grand) than the pivots of the white keys. But I don't know how the downweights vary, as you move your finger up toward the fallboard.


. Charles
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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953760 03/03/20 01:19 AM
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Yes, it’s nice that he measured something, for once, but why didn’t he think to test closer to the fallboard? It probably is a feature and he, and everyone else, is expecting too much from a cheap keyboard. His next video will probably compare it to an expensive acoustic piano.

Last edited by LarryK; 03/03/20 01:23 AM.
Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953763 03/03/20 01:34 AM
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Amazing.

He made that video because people questioned his assessment of the key weights in the actual review video.

Now people are still asking for third party confirmation and calling him a troll.

Oh, and you are all idiots.

😁

(No, you're not. But got to keep up the image of this (in)famous forum.)

And a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing. Although I don't see any reason to question the video or the (claimed) fact of different key weights.

Oh, but it's the "Smart” Scaled Hammer Action, so I'm sure Casio will fix it with a firmware update soon...

😉

I have vague (false?) memories of someone somewhere at sometime commenting on different key weights on the whites and blacks. Maybe it was some Fatar action(?)

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953765 03/03/20 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryK
His next video will probably compare it to an expensive acoustic piano.
Well, that would be OK too, but better would be also to do the same test on a Kawai, a Yamaha and a Roland. Otherwise it doesn't really tell me much of anything, comparatively. I'd still have to compare for myself.
Originally Posted by LarryK
It probably is a feature and he, and everyone else, is expecting too much from a cheap keyboard.
In all honesty, I think *all* DPs are cheap keyboards compared to an actual acoustic. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy my DP. But this kind of stuff is really just nibbling at the margins.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
clothearednincompo #2953766 03/03/20 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Now people are still asking for third party confirmation

Why would you even get offended by that? What would it hurt to test another sample from the wild? The experiment ought to be repeatable, no?

This is, after all, potentially a major strike against these Casios.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953769 03/03/20 02:19 AM
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Is he talking about us? Perhaps. But isn't he also talking also about www.anything-at-all-on-the-interwebs.com ?
Originally Posted by Gombessa
He also mentions at 7:45 that there is a horrible "piano forum out there where every discussion devolves into arguments and people insulting each other by the second page. It's almost kind of sad." Is he talking about....us??? Are we really...that...FAMOUS?! Woohoo!

I have to agree with this ...
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
It's nice to have someone _actually measure something_ -- it makes it much harder to get into religious arguments. At 0:25, he says that the _black_ keys are much lighter than the _white_ keys. And he proves it.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953771 03/03/20 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
About the keys, or about us? smile

No way it is us. We start the arguments right from the first page!!


Osho


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953777 03/03/20 02:37 AM
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It you want an argument from the start ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953787 03/03/20 04:13 AM
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James must have changed his mind....

2:04 on this video and he seems quite happy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUefK3U6KzU&t=177s


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Osho #2953788 03/03/20 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by Gombessa
About the keys, or about us? smile

No way it is us. We start the arguments right from the first page!!


Osho


I am laughing!!


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Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953809 03/03/20 06:27 AM
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I'm not offended by asking for 3rd party confirmation, but I have faith in the famous Japanese manufacturing precision and repeatability, so I believe all Smart Scaled Hammer Actions are the same. 😁

And yes he has changed his mind and said that it was difficult to really assess the piano in the noisy NAMM.

And it's an interesting idea that it would be an intentional feature to compensate the short pivot. I guess one doesn't really design or manufacture different key weights by accident. Not at a company like Casio anyway.

Fixing a problem with another problem. Of course compromises need to be done for the world's slimmest hammer action.

And it probably won't bother most of the world's population.

Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
Gombessa #2953811 03/03/20 06:34 AM
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What’s sad is that James dismisses this forum, yet, he might learn something about pianos if he engaged with the knowledgeable people on here, people such as piano technicians, rebuilders, and owners of the pianos which he reviews.

I have never been impressed by the content of his videos, I have learned far more watching videos from Roberts pianos, or from Hugh Sung. James should go off and work in a piano rebuilding shop so that he can learn about what actually makes a piano a piano, or in an electronics repair shop so that he can learn about the design of electronic keyboards.

Of course, people argue on here. Welcome to the real world, James. Discussions in which everybody agrees are not discussions at all, and one learns nothing from them.

My classical guitar teacher told me that the secretaries at the music school where he teaches go home early on the day when the piano department meets. They can’t stand all the arguing. Haha!

Last edited by LarryK; 03/03/20 06:43 AM.
Re: Casio PX-S1000/3000 black keys heavier than white?
rmns2bseen #2953813 03/03/20 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by LarryK
His next video will probably compare it to an expensive acoustic piano.
Well, that would be OK too, but better would be also to do the same test on a Kawai, a Yamaha and a Roland. Otherwise it doesn't really tell me much of anything, comparatively. I'd still have to compare for myself.
Originally Posted by LarryK
It probably is a feature and he, and everyone else, is expecting too much from a cheap keyboard.
In all honesty, I think *all* DPs are cheap keyboards compared to an actual acoustic. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy my DP. But this kind of stuff is really just nibbling at the margins.


Yes, I agree, but it is much easier to attack the manufacturer of the cheapest DP than it is to exhaustively test keyboards from a wide range of manufacturers. Plus, you know, attacking Casio is an easy way to get clicks.

There are plenty of people on here who will say that the grand piano actions in their high end DPs are better than the actions on acoustic uprights, and they have a point, but much of it comes down to how much money a person is willing to spend for what level of performance.

A $699 keyboard is kind of a miracle in itself, even if it does have design problems with its action.

Last edited by LarryK; 03/03/20 06:46 AM.
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