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Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? #2952175 02/27/20 11:08 AM
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Munn14464 Offline OP
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Hi Everyone!

Just putting this out there as I love to read the responses and information given on these forums.

I sold my aging Steinway M last fall because I did not want to put money into restoring it. I picked up an Everett spinet for the time being, but it is simply not cutting it with my rep. It's small, holds it's tune, and looks nice, but....

Anyway, I've been piano shopping and have narrowed it down to two viable choices:

A 1922 Steinway Model O - rebuilt by a great local company in 2003 with Renner parts, Roslau strings, original Ivories and Soundboard - seller is asking $14,000 OBO, but I think she would go down more (was listed for $12,000 in December) - last thing left in her mother's house, so it needs to be out.

A late 1980s Kawai GE-1 in immaculate condition. The case is stunning and I was impressed with the sound/power, coming from a 5'1" piano. It is in all original condition and has been played lightly and maintained. Sellers are asking $5,000, but I think they'd take less. They also need to get it out of their house as the house is sold. It does have a small hairline crack in the soundboard, but it doesn't effect anything at this time and probably won't (per my tuner).

In all honesty, I'd be happy with either instrument; just one would be more permanent.

I am a Steinway guy....I know I should open my mind, but I love playing classical music and I love music of the early 20th century (Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, etc...) and the thought of playing that on an instrument from that time period is so exciting.

Anyway....just wanted thoughts. If I go with the Steinway I'd have to take out a loan at this point, but, I feel it might be worth it in the long run. The Kawai would be a temporary solution, as I know I'd want a Steinway in the future. Is the Steinway too good of a deal to pass up, even if it means going into debt?

Just putting it out there....

Thanks all!
Jeremy

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Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952203 02/27/20 11:55 AM
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Hi Jeremy,

While a properly rebuilt Steinway O ought to run circles around a Kawai 5'1", I would reserve my judgement. When you are buying a rebuilt piano you are buying the rebuilder as much as you are the piano itself. Important questions to consider are: What was the rebuilders goals when rebuilding this piano? Was it to make this as much like it was the day it left the Steinway factory? (This is not even something many rebuilders will spend the time to do) Was it to please the client's pocketbook or preferences? How did his goal effect his choice of materials? How were the materials handled. prepared and used? Finally, what is the final instrument's character in touch and tone?

If his goal was the former, then it should be a bit different than today's Steinway O, which is made to a different design in geometry and scale design.

My best advice is to find out more. What was done to this instrument? Who did it? How can you expect this instrument to age? DO you enjoy the way it plays?

I look forward to hearing more about this.

My 2 cents,


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Philadelphia, King of Prussia, and Cherry Hill, NJ
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
https://www.youtube.com/user/CunninghamPiano
Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Rich Galassini] #2952224 02/27/20 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
Hi Jeremy,

While a properly rebuilt Steinway O ought to run circles around a Kawai 5'1", I would reserve my judgement. When you are buying a rebuilt piano you are buying the rebuilder as much as you are the piano itself. Important questions to consider are: What was the rebuilders goals when rebuilding this piano? Was it to make this as much like it was the day it left the Steinway factory? (This is not even something many rebuilders will spend the time to do) Was it to please the client's pocketbook or preferences? How did his goal effect his choice of materials? How were the materials handled. prepared and used? Finally, what is the final instrument's character in touch and tone?

If his goal was the former, then it should be a bit different than today's Steinway O, which is made to a different design in geometry and scale design.

My best advice is to find out more. What was done to this instrument? Who did it? How can you expect this instrument to age? DO you enjoy the way it plays?

I look forward to hearing more about this.

My 2 cents,


Rich - I’m always amazed at your excellent advice.

Jeremy - what Rich said. smile


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
“Send lawyers, guns, and money. The $hit has hit the fan.” Warren Zevon
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Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: j&j] #2952267 02/27/20 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by j&j
Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
Hi Jeremy,

While a properly rebuilt Steinway O ought to run circles around a Kawai 5'1", I would reserve my judgement. When you are buying a rebuilt piano you are buying the rebuilder as much as you are the piano itself. Important questions to consider are: What was the rebuilders goals when rebuilding this piano? Was it to make this as much like it was the day it left the Steinway factory? (This is not even something many rebuilders will spend the time to do) Was it to please the client's pocketbook or preferences? How did his goal effect his choice of materials? How were the materials handled. prepared and used? Finally, what is the final instrument's character in touch and tone?

If his goal was the former, then it should be a bit different than today's Steinway O, which is made to a different design in geometry and scale design.

My best advice is to find out more. What was done to this instrument? Who did it? How can you expect this instrument to age? DO you enjoy the way it plays?

I look forward to hearing more about this.

My 2 cents,


Rich - I’m always amazed at your excellent advice.

Jeremy - what Rich said. smile


+1 - again excellent advice from Rich. I couldn't have said it better myself. The Steinway O sounds like a wonder opportunity, but they key is in how extensive the restoration was and how well it was executed.

Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952277 02/27/20 02:56 PM
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Munn14464 Offline OP
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Thank you everyone for your responses thus far. The Steinway owner had the paperwork from when the piano was rebuilt in 2003. In 2003 the company:

Replace the pin block (13 ply maple)
Installation of Renner Action Parts: Shanks, Flanges, Knuckles
Replace all Strings and Tuning Pins with Bushings (German Made Roslau Wire)
Replace all Hammers (German Made Renner Hammers)
Replace all Dampers (Royal George Felt)
Replace all Stringings and Key Frame Felts
Restore all Keytops (saving original ivory when possible; replacing others)
Level and Dip Keys
Regulate Action and Pedals
Refinish Case (Lacquered Satin Ebony)
Repair and Refinish original bench to match
Refinish and Guild Plate
Refinish Hardware and Decal and Damper Heads
Refit Plate Installing Proper Bearing
Tune and Voice to A-440
Soundboard in Excellent Condition

It currently is NOT at A-440, but is in tune with itself.

It played and sounded like a classic 1920's Steinway....which I love. It definitely had that warm, rich, mellow, singing tone - not muddy or bright.

I'm just scared to get another "lemon." My technician told me I couldn't go wrong with either instrument. He has not seen the Steinway, but has seen this rebuilder's work in other pianos and has commended it. After I saw the Steinway in person, I went to the shop as they also sell rebuilt pianos. I talked to one of the workers who knew of the piano I was talking about and said if he were to take it in on consignment, the shop would put it on the floor at $26,000.

I know $12,000-$14,000 is not a lot of money in Steinway world, but it is a lot to me....it would most likely be the last piano I buy.

Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952281 02/27/20 03:13 PM
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Hi Jeremy
Seems like your heart is clearly with the Steinway and so this is really a financial question as you will need a loan. If this were my decision, I would think of the financial burden:

Can I afford the monthly payment? Would this severely strain my resources every month? Can I do this for the entire length of the contract? Do I expect any improvement in my finances during the term of the loan? (I.e. paying off another loan/credit card, pay raise at work). What financial changes would I need to make (give up Starbucks vs giving up meals)!

Think about the financial piece of this decision and I think you will have your answer.

Last edited by dogperson; 02/27/20 03:15 PM.

"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: dogperson] #2952284 02/27/20 03:22 PM
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Yes...that's definitely it. However, it's not inaccessible or unreasonable. I am a school music teacher/church organist. I accompany a number of musicals and festival choruses and things like that....the piano is definitely my passion. And it does come down to finances, but more so the effect of length of a loan as opposed to monthly payments. Maybe in the end it will all be worth it, though!

Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952292 02/27/20 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Munn14464
Yes...that's definitely it. However, it's not inaccessible or unreasonable. I am a school music teacher/church organist. I accompany a number of musicals and festival choruses and things like that....the piano is definitely my passion. And it does come down to finances, but more so the effect of length of a loan as opposed to monthly payments. Maybe in the end it will all be worth it, though!

Since you are a professional musician it would definitely be worth it. Hopefully with some scrimping, eating at home, packing your own lunch, skipping high priced exotic take out coffee, and other such things, you can save quite a bit to free up money for the Steinway. Best Wishes!


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
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Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952305 02/27/20 04:56 PM
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My thoughts,

Apart from the obvious point of the quality and methods used in the restoration, there are some things conspicuously missing that will cost you $$ in the future, at least if you are looking for a professional level piano, now and going forward.

About half of the action is what we call the wippen, or repetition. This part literally controls the repetition, or the reload, of each key. I have seen pianos where the wippens "work", but I have never met a professional level musician who enjoyed playing on 100 year old wippens.

Secondly, the belly of the piano, which includes the soundboard, the ribs, and the bridges, which have everything to do with how the piano produces and "amplifies" the tone, remain original. These parts were originally designed to fail and are not meant to last 100 years, let alone to last substantially beyond that.

I am sorry if I am bursting a bubble, but I would proceed with extreme caution, at least if you would like to have an instrument that will perform for you at a high level for a number of years.

My 2 cents,


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Philadelphia, King of Prussia, and Cherry Hill, NJ
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
https://www.youtube.com/user/CunninghamPiano
Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Rich Galassini] #2952323 02/27/20 05:40 PM
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Thank you Rich.

The soundboard is a concern of mine as well, however, wouldn't a new soundboard alter the overall sound of the piano? One main reason I did not put money into my old M was because I was uncertain of what the final product would be. I like that this one has been rebuilt and I really like the sound/touch of this one.

My technician mentioned the wippens, too. Although, he said that in pianos that he had rebuilt, sometimes they've left the original wippens. Is it that concerning that they haven't been replaced? On the original document, wippens were supposed to be replaced, but it was scribbled out by hand. So, not sure if they cut them out altogether or not.

Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952334 02/27/20 06:12 PM
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If you have a good rebuilder, who understands how to make and install a new soundboard, then a replacement soundboard won't ultimately change the entire character of your piano. A new soundboard under those circumstances will give you back a perfected version of your old piano. Of course it depends on how well the strings were installed, how the down bearing was set, how the hammers have been voiced, how the action has been regulated, etc etc. Then there's the point that not all soundboards fail. Usually the larger pianos have failed soundboards after a century but that said, I know of a 1901 D that is going in for rebuilding, and the rebuilder has said he couldn't improve on this particular piano's soundboard so it will remain.

Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952339 02/27/20 06:25 PM
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I was originally looking at 'golden era' M&Hs and Steinways, but due to advice from experts like Rich I've realized I shouldn't buy a project. All the properly rebuilt golden era pianos are above my price range, so it would be better for me to settle with a more 'pedestrian' piano built in the past 15 years.

Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: joe80] #2952346 02/27/20 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by joe80
Usually the larger pianos have failed soundboards after a century but that said, I know of a 1901 D that is going in for rebuilding, and the rebuilder has said he couldn't improve on this particular piano's soundboard so it will remain.


That would be a rare thing indeed. I think I would have to see that to believe it, Joseph.


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Philadelphia, King of Prussia, and Cherry Hill, NJ
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
https://www.youtube.com/user/CunninghamPiano
Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952352 02/27/20 07:46 PM
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Wippens and soundboard may not be in perfect condition, but a finely rebuilt Steinway with perfect wippens and soundboard, together with pin block, shanks, flanges, knuckles, strings, tuning pins, hammers, dampers, key felts all replaced 17 years ago, and case refinished, would cost way more than $14k, wouldn't it?

I am not familiar with how much it normally cost to replace the wippens and soundboard, but just hypothetically, say OP needs to put in $10k worth of repair work five years down the road, that would still be substantially cheaper than a $50k newly rebuilt Steinway today, right?

We all love perfect pianos, they are a dream to play, but they are also expensive. I think the real question is whether the said piano in its current condition is worth the $14k ask price, and what can the OP get out from this piano should he decide to buy it.

Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952360 02/27/20 08:32 PM
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Jeremy, I wouldn't worry too much about borrowing money. Over the years I've owned 8 different pianos and paid cash when I could and financed when I couldn't. I've never regretted any of my piano purchases. My late aunt always said, "If the banker can sleep at night after loaning me the money, then I'm not going to lose any sleep because I borrowed it."

You played the Steinway, you liked the Steinway, you said you were a Steinway guy and the tech gave a positive reference. I don't think you'd be making an unreasonable decision to get it.

Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Rich Galassini] #2952484 02/28/20 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
Originally Posted by joe80
Usually the larger pianos have failed soundboards after a century but that said, I know of a 1901 D that is going in for rebuilding, and the rebuilder has said he couldn't improve on this particular piano's soundboard so it will remain.


That would be a rare thing indeed. I think I would have to see that to believe it, Joseph.


The climate is very different in the UK so pianos last a lot longer than in many places in the USA. The piano in question was inspected by a mutual friend of ours Rich, so you can ask him about it, he knows a lot more than I do about it.

Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952489 02/28/20 09:56 AM
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"It sounded and played like a classic 1920's Steinway which I loved...".
As Rich G noted, the wippens may not have been replaced, and... adding to what he said, SOME PIANISTS would find the action response lacking.

Was that true for you?
If not, if it felt okay, it could be years before you needed new wippens... or not.
So many action parts were replaced in 2003. Perhaps the wippens were reconditioned, or didn't need replacement? How much real playing has the instrument had in the interim? You can tell, e.g., by how grooved the hammers are. If little wear, I believe the wippens could be just about as good as they were in 2003, which was, apparently good enough not to need replacement.

Soundboard? Others have written how the original boards can still be fine (enough).
The board in my Steinert (very close copy of a vintage Steinway B from 1929) is original, and the piano sustains and sings.

From what was written, the parts that WERE replaced were of high quality. That the ivory wasn't summarily stripped from the keys is indicative to me that whoever did the job cared about the details, didn't take the easiest way to do things.

I, too, like the "classic Steinway sound".

$14,000 is the asking price. Negotiate. Buy the "O".
Spend a few bucks more and have it inspected by an independent technician first just to make sure.
My opinion.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Rich Galassini] #2952492 02/28/20 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Rich Galassini
Originally Posted by joe80
Usually the larger pianos have failed soundboards after a century but that said, I know of a 1901 D that is going in for rebuilding, and the rebuilder has said he couldn't improve on this particular piano's soundboard so it will remain.


That would be a rare thing indeed. I think I would have to see that to believe it, Joseph.


I have a 1903 M & H BB with a good, original soundboard— judged by my ears and my tech’s evaluation


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Seeker] #2952554 02/28/20 12:37 PM
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Thanks Andrew for your post.

I'm still on the fence, but I know where my heart is.

I spent about 40 minutes playing it - a lot of different things. Some of my favorite choral accompaniments, some popular songs of the teens and twenties, thirties. Some church arrangements of hymns and some classical. I love playing Chopin Nocturnes and the trills and runs were effortless and flowing. Which tells me that the original wippens must still be in pretty good shape. The action was certainly not sluggish.

The piano has not been played much at all since the rebuilding. The piano belonged to the owner's mother which was a gift by her parents in 1944 on her 5th birthday. It seems like the family had it rebuilt in 2003 as a gift to "mom," who, in her old age, didn't play it as much as when she was younger. The owner said her father is a jazz musician, but doesn't play the piano. I get the impression it really was just a beautiful, sentimental piece of furniture over the past 17 years.

Re: Restored Steinway O or a Kawai GE-1? [Re: Munn14464] #2952653 02/28/20 05:32 PM
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Munn14464 - it sounds to me like you’ve fallen in love with the Steinway O and also the story of this piano.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
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