2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
67 members (accordeur, Beowulf, anotherscott, CyberGene, Buzz209, ChrisGoesPiano, baudelairepianist, 36251, Chewbacca, 16 invisible), 466 guests, and 461 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Steinway rumors?
j&j #2949941 02/21/20 07:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,823
F
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
F
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,823
Originally Posted by j&j
Originally Posted by Furtwangler
Originally Posted by Ken Iisaka
The value of the land at the factory is worth a lot. Developing that land will give them a much higher RoE.



It totals 11 acres.

Last summer it was reported that Paulson was selling half of the acreage to Robert De Niro for $73MM

Stay tuned.


Ewwwwh! I hate Robert De Niro.”



I knew there was a reason that I like you!!


Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
Re: Steinway rumors?
j&j #2949950 02/21/20 08:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,610
L
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,610
Originally Posted by j&j
Originally Posted by Furtwangler
Originally Posted by Ken Iisaka
The value of the land at the factory is worth a lot. Developing that land will give them a much higher RoE.



It totals 11 acres.

Last summer it was reported that Paulson was selling half of the acreage to Robert De Niro for $73MM

Stay tuned.


Ewwwwh! I hate Robert De Niro.”


How is that possible? Robert De Niro is one of the greatest actors of our time.


Re: Steinway rumors?
LarryK #2949977 02/21/20 10:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 21
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 21
Never equate someone who is good at their job with necessarily being a good person.


Yamaha C1
Re: Steinway rumors?
Ken Iisaka #2950025 02/22/20 01:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
D
dng Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Recently a Steinway dealer suggested the most pianos sold are M’s, A’s and B’s, and suggested perhaps S, and O’s may not be as frequently made.

Re: Steinway rumors?
Ken Iisaka #2950087 02/22/20 09:36 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,687
J
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,687
I suspect this is all rumour. Kawai making rims for Steinway? I doubt it.

Re: Steinway rumors?
Tgrshrk99 #2950089 02/22/20 09:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,908
j&j Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,908
Originally Posted by Tgrshrk99
Never equate someone who is good at their job with necessarily being a good person.


Exactly!!


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
[Linked Image]
Re: Steinway rumors?
Joseph Fleetwood #2950103 02/22/20 10:19 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,286
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,286
Originally Posted by joe80
I suspect this is all rumour. Kawai making rims for Steinway? I doubt it.

I guess "Boston" pianos don't count. smile


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: Steinway rumors?
Ken Iisaka #2950301 02/22/20 06:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,687
J
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,687
When Boston first came out, there were people saying for years "of course, now Kawai is making Steinway pianos", or more subtly "now Kawai is making pianos for Steinway". I think Pearl River make Essex pianos, and that led to people saying "now some Steinways are made in China"....

The truth was of course Kawai have been making Boston pianos for Steinway and Sons for almost 30 years, and Pearl River have been making Essex pianos for Steinway and Sons for about 12 or 15 years (whatever I can't remember the exact dates), but the Steinway piano is only made by the Steinway factories in Hamburg and New York. To be honest Steinways do enough to rub people up the wrong way (the whole decal and restoration saga for example) without these rumours being added to the mix.

I WILL be interested to see if they are just rumours or if there's a truth behind them. The rumour a few years back was that there would no longer be a New York and a Hamburg Steinway, and that both factories would produce exactly the same piano. Ron Losby said in the interview with Tiffany Poon that the New York would remain a New York and the Hamburg would remain a Hamburg, but they had streamlined some cosmetic things. Again there though, there have been at various points in time New York Steinways made with Hamburg parts, etc etc (not making this a New York vs Hamburg post, there's enough of them...)

I could see for instance, one of the factories dropping the M and the S, but the other one keeping them on. I could see Hamburg keeping the smaller grands on because of European demands, but again I'm only speculating. Certainly I've never quite understood why someone would pay the eyewatering prices demanded by the M and the S - it's not that much piano for the money.

Re: Steinway rumors?
Joseph Fleetwood #2950304 02/22/20 06:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,598
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,598
Originally Posted by joe80
Certainly I've never quite understood why someone would pay the eyewatering prices demanded by the M and the S - it's not that much piano for the money.


I know, but a nice M is great fun! 😁

Re: Steinway rumors?
johnstaf #2950316 02/22/20 06:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,908
j&j Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,908
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by joe80
Certainly I've never quite understood why someone would pay the eyewatering prices demanded by the M and the S - it's not that much piano for the money.


I know, but a nice M is great fun! 😁


The only thing that l think would explain it is the M and S models still have the Steinway name and are small enough to fit in a small apartment in Manhattan.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
I don’t play well but I play far better than I sing.
[Linked Image]
Re: Steinway rumors?
Ken Iisaka #2950621 02/23/20 04:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 218
I
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
I
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 218
It definitely makes sense to me for Steinway to discontinue 1 or 2 sizes. Streamlining/outsourcing the uprights and getting rid of the Steinway S is probably a good move. Uprights are just so low margin and not as good in perceived quality and prestige that it would make sense for Steinway to massively scale down to make room, factory-wise and personnel-wise, for more grands.

Re: Steinway rumors?
iObsessed #2950630 02/23/20 04:43 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,420
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,420
Originally Posted by iObsessed
It definitely makes sense to me for Steinway to discontinue 1 or 2 sizes. Streamlining/outsourcing the uprights and getting rid of the Steinway S is probably a good move. Uprights are just so low margin and not as good in perceived quality and prestige that it would make sense for Steinway to massively scale down to make room, factory-wise and personnel-wise, for more grands.
But I think your argument about Steinway uprights, if true, could apply to any prestigious makers uprights. Yet they don't seem to be changing their upright production. I don't think Steinway needs more room for grand production since they used to make many more pianos in the same factory. The above doesn't mean I don't think there could be some other reason why it would make sense to change their upright production.

Re: Steinway rumors?
Ken Iisaka #2950635 02/23/20 04:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,598
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,598
I wonder if Steinway uprights are selling. I hardly ever see Steinway even mentioned in discussions about the finest uprights money can buy. It's nearly always Blüthner, Bechstein, Bösendorfer, Steingraeber, Sauter etc.

Re: Steinway rumors?
iObsessed #2950676 02/23/20 06:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,806
L
5000 Post Club Member
Online Content
5000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,806
Originally Posted by iObsessed
It definitely makes sense to me for Steinway to discontinue 1 or 2 sizes. Streamlining/outsourcing the uprights and getting rid of the Steinway S is probably a good move. Uprights are just so low margin and not as good in perceived quality and prestige that it would make sense for Steinway to massively scale down to make room, factory-wise and personnel-wise, for more grands.

Yes well as long as they let everyone know.The price of those uprights and smaller grands are
extremely high.

Re: Steinway rumors?
Ken Iisaka #2951148 02/24/20 07:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,501

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
5000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,501
If I was Steinway™...

Assuming what I've heard -- that they are discounting and cutting production -- is true, here's what I'd do. I would respond to the dynamic in play by not only discontinuing S, M and O production in NYC, I'd drop the price of an A to about 80k (just a little more than the current M price). As Piano*Dad noted above, their marginal cost increase for the additional 13, 7 or 4 inches over the S, M and O respectively simply isn't that much.

This would likely rock the 6 foot (and under) market.

How would this impact Steinway? First of all, I suspect that it's largely price that determines which Steinway people buy, so if a buyer can get more piano for the same amount, they'll take it. Anyone who would have bought an M or O will probably be willing to buy an A for roughly the same price. Steinway would lose the marginal revenue associated with the sale of A's and O's at the current price, but if they are already discounting sales, then this is just a move in the same direction. Also, this loss would be offset to some extent by those who would have otherwise bought an S because it's the cheapest paying a little more for the A because it would now be the cheapest (and/or "worth" the difference in price). In other words, I don't think Steinway would lose many sales in terms of units.

Further, I think they'd pick up a sales from people shopping in the 6 foot and under space, because the A would sell to more people who would like a Steinway but are more price sensitive. For example, this would drop the A under a Yamaha CF4, and put it in shooting range of an S3X, just to name one competitor. Other makers would be forced to adjust their prices if they wanted to maintain their current price position relative to Steinway.

Any shopper considering a high-end six-foot piano would give the Steinway a much harder look than they might have otherwise. Steinway would probably not lose unit sales at all. It doesn't cost them much more to produce the A than they other models. And I think they'd pick up sales from competition. They'd save some on switching costs in the factory by avoiding switching between setups for the "extra" models (in truth, this is probably nominal, but could be the rationale for dropping the A price to something that approximates the "replaced" models).

For shoppers who are less price conscious and truly prefer an S or M for space reasons, the Hamburg models could be made available for their current prices.

Assuming that the least expensive models are the most popular, and that unit sales don't drop, then their gross revenue would hardly change. Assuming they pick up sales, then their gross revenue would increase.



Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet
Re: Steinway rumors?
Furtwangler #2951440 02/25/20 02:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,501

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
5000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,501
Originally Posted by Furtwangler
Originally Posted by Ken Iisaka
The value of the land at the factory is worth a lot. Developing that land will give them a much higher RoE.



It totals 11 acres.

Last summer it was reported that Paulson was selling half of the acreage to Robert De Niro for $73MM

Stay tuned.


I've commented on this before, but if you divide the company roughly into halves, NYC and Hamburg, then this sale underwrites almost half of the NYC side. Of course, those are very rough numbers, and there's the whole band instruments division, etc, so just selling half the property is a very significant thing in terms of the current ownership's ROI. I still think the property is ultimately too valuable to just sit on, especially since production is [likely] dropping, etc. They could move production, sell the rest and come out even further ahead. That's assuming that they want to maintain NY production. Hamburg seems to be where the action is, given the global market. Of course, they could also do some major restructuring in that regard, and serve markets differently too (e.g. US production going to China (or vice versa wink )). But the rest of the world seems to largely view Steinway as a German piano, at least in places where pianos are selling...



Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Inspired by 'long sustain' Singing Piano
by doremi - 11/27/20 08:18 AM
Your Black Friday buyings (only on-topic)
by EB5AGV - 11/27/20 06:24 AM
Why couldn't I have these parents?
by David B - 11/27/20 12:33 AM
Some Questions Re: Old Petrof Grand
by Seeker - 11/26/20 10:27 PM
Thanksgiving
by Retsacnal - 11/26/20 08:55 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,076
Posts3,027,750
Members99,384
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4