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Alternative Scale Fingering
#2950360 02/22/20 10:16 PM
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Hi,

I've been teaching myself for 4/5 years. Somewhere along the line I came across these Alternate Scale Fingering that seemed like a good idea.
I've been practicing them and I like them. They feel quite intuitive and logical. Recently I've taken a teacher for the first time and she is insisting I revert to traditional fingerings. I'm resisting!
1. Firstly does anyone else know this fingering and what are peoples opinion about the utility or otherwise of them?
2. Secondly, should I be a good student and stop resisting or is there a case, as I feel there is, to be made for sticking with these fingerings I've now learnt

I should add my main goal here in learning the piano is to be able to improvise (as opposed to learning repertoire)
Also, I think my teacher is really good!


So I say:

I have adopted this and made it my own: [clap clap]
Cut back the weakness, reinforce what is strong. [repeat]

[guitar solo]
[fade over incoherent yelps]
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Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950371 02/22/20 11:35 PM
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Except for C harmonic minor right hand 2-3-4-1-2-3-1-2 (at my teacher's suggestion), I've used "traditional" fingering for all other scales. It's interesting that some left hand alternative fingerings start with a 1-4 instead of the usual 5-4. I wonder what's the benefit of that.

One of the reasons why I think adult students progress less quicker than younger students is that we think too much. We learned to be skeptical growing up, and we question everything, even people that we trust or should trust.

There's a reason you decided to learn from this teacher. There's a reason why you claim your teacher is good. Go with that instinct and trust her, even if you can't fully understand the reason/purpose at this point in time. Sure it will take extra effort to learn different fingerings now, but what is that compared to being to play more proficiently say, in a few years time?

Find the answer for yourself. Learn the traditional fingerings. In time, you can compare which set of fingerings has more benefits, which one you play better, then decide and discuss with your teacher again. At least you'll have more credibility when you bring up the subject after having practised both.

Good luck!


Be yourself

Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950376 02/22/20 11:54 PM
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I am not familiar with the alternative fingering but did know that alternatives existed. Having been required to use the traditional fingering myself, I of course find them completely natural and would resist any change as you are. If you are not going to sit any exams I would continue to keep your own method. Scales should also be a fairly minor part of your regime, I think arpeggios are much more important, and if I were not doing exams my teacher would not even expect me to do scales at lessons. As it is we only do scales in the lead up to exams, and we don't waste any time on them outside of that period.


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Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
Tubbie0075 #2950398 02/23/20 02:09 AM
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Hi,
Thanks for the response. Good points! I guess it still feels a bit like unnecessary pain reverting to different fingering. If there was a compelling technical reason, like these fingerings are clearly rubbish, or there's something about the traditional fingering that is fundamental to making music, then I might be swayed

Originally Posted by Tubbie0075
It's interesting that some left hand alternative fingerings start with a 1-4 instead of the usual 5-4. I wonder what's the benefit of that.


I took that as emphasising the required fingering when continuing past one octave. I start with the 5 and don't think that is an issue with this chart. Mainly the chart seems to address the issue of the 4th finger on the black keys, by making (or attempting) to make both hands adhere to this.


So I say:

I have adopted this and made it my own: [clap clap]
Cut back the weakness, reinforce what is strong. [repeat]

[guitar solo]
[fade over incoherent yelps]
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950402 02/23/20 02:35 AM
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This was a really interesting question. I was classically trained and honestly never even knew alternate fingering existed to this degree.
Most of the changes look like they are for the left hand especially for scales starting on white keys. My argument for staying with traditional fingering is that the traditional left hand scales are fingered similar to how one would play chords or patterns in the left hand. If your goal is improvisation, by familiarizing yourself with the traditional fingering, the chords or left hand comp patterns may come to you more naturally and quickly. You mentioned the scales feel more natural and intuitive; however it is more rare for the left hand to play single notes in a scale like pattern as it often acts as accompaniment for the right hand.
Just my two cents on this interesting topic.

Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
Ruth CM #2950404 02/23/20 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruth CM
This was a really interesting question. I was classically trained and honestly never even knew alternate fingering existed to this degree.
Most of the changes look like they are for the left hand especially for scales starting on white keys. My argument for staying with traditional fingering is that the traditional left hand scales are fingered similar to how one would play chords or patterns in the left hand. If your goal is improvisation, by familiarizing yourself with the traditional fingering, the chords or left hand comp patterns may come to you more naturally and quickly. You mentioned the scales feel more natural and intuitive; however it is more rare for the left hand to play single notes in a scale like pattern as it often acts as accompaniment for the right hand.
Just my two cents on this interesting topic.

Oh good...well they're definitely compelling arguments, thanks Ruth.
What do others think? Does Ruth have a good point?


So I say:

I have adopted this and made it my own: [clap clap]
Cut back the weakness, reinforce what is strong. [repeat]

[guitar solo]
[fade over incoherent yelps]
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950422 02/23/20 05:15 AM
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It possibly depends on the reason an individual uses a particular keyboard playing form such as a scale as well as a host of other reasons including musical context, hand shape and size and the desired sound. I was taught all the usual positions and fingerings but over many years of improvising I came to realise that always playing the same subsets with the same fingering tended to hinder idea flow and that the situation was a good deal more complicated than I was taught. Therefore, aside from the obviously grotesque, clumsy or injurious, I constantly expand the variety of fingerings I use for anything and do not hesitate to experiment with new ones.

Last edited by Ted; 02/23/20 05:22 AM.

"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
Ted #2950424 02/23/20 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ted
It possibly depends on the reason an individual uses a particular keyboard playing form such as a scale as well as a host of other reasons including musical context, hand shape and size and the desired sound. I was taught all the usual positions and fingerings but over many years of improvising I came to realise that always playing the same subsets with the same fingering tended to hinder idea flow and that the situation was a good deal more complcated than I was taught. Therefore, aside from the obviously grotesque, clumsy or injurious, I constantly expand the variety of fingerings I use for anything and do not hesitate to experiment with new ones.

Yeah that's perhaps a more holistic way of looking at this. That is being content to explore multiple fingerings and not getting hung up about sticking to one. Thanks Ted


So I say:

I have adopted this and made it my own: [clap clap]
Cut back the weakness, reinforce what is strong. [repeat]

[guitar solo]
[fade over incoherent yelps]
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950426 02/23/20 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by HC110
Hi,

I've been teaching myself for 4/5 years. Somewhere along the line I came across these Alternate Scale Fingering that seemed like a good idea.
I've been practicing them and I like them. They feel quite intuitive and logical. Recently I've taken a teacher for the first time and she is insisting I revert to traditional fingerings. I'm resisting!
1. Firstly does anyone else know this fingering and what are peoples opinion about the utility or otherwise of them?
2. Secondly, should I be a good student and stop resisting or is there a case, as I feel there is, to be made for sticking with these fingerings I've now learnt

I should add my main goal here in learning the piano is to be able to improvise (as opposed to learning repertoire)
Also, I think my teacher is really good!


These alternate fingerings for the most part are well known since several decades. They continue to use the 1231234 pattern only that the initial finger is different for some keys.

In Major the difference is for the 4 keys of G, D, A and F for the left hand. The changes are simply based on the fact that the left hand pattern for these keys is not quite as practical in the standard fingering as it is for the right hand.
Therefore the proposed fingering is the one used for the left hand pattern of the sharp/flat key that has the same number of accidentals (ie for D major, use the LH pattern of B flat major). I will pass over the rationale but it is based on symmetrical configuration. The resulting fingering is indeed slightly better, however you will only notice it in really fast tempos. For most ordinary tempo, the standard fingering is just fine.

For the minor scales, there is not a similar possibility, however some pianist have proposed slightly improved fingering. Typically Moszkowski in his scale book proposed a different fingering (again changing simply the order) for the left hand in harmonic minor scales of F, C, G, D and A which is reproduced here by T. Kelly.

Now the issue is that for the key of A minor for example, you have now 3 different LH fingering for the natural, harmonic and melodic minor. If the fingering of Moszkowsky is marginally better than the standard one for the harmonic minor, the one proposed by Kelly for the melodic one is no better and I think less efficient than the standard one. In fact using the same standard fingering for all 3 cases works quite well and there is really no need to go into such refinement for such a simple key. Similarly I do not find that the C minor harmonic fingering is any better than the standard one. In addition it has the disadvantage of changing the contrary motion symmetry that you benefit from in the standard fingering.

All in all, the few changes have also some drawbacks such as introducing more fingerings. These alternate fingerings are really usefull for pro/advanced musicians for challenging pieces in very fast tempos. You can certainly be aware they exists in case you would need them. I often times practice my scales with the C major finegring in any key to make sure that I do not rely on the standard fingering and to practice more difficult configuration (A flat major for example).

In real pieces sometimes you can not afford to start a scale with your preferred fingering and so you need the flexibility to execute an alternate fingering instead. But that would be for advanced players.

For your second question, I do not want to get into the relationships between you and your teachers; that is your decision. From a technical standpoint, my point of view is that the fingering proposed by T. Kelly for the minor keys is too complicated and brings marginal benefits (if any) for a beginner. For the major keys, I think it is a good practice to train yourself on the standard fingering which has some other side benefits such as keeping the symmetry in contrary motion. There are only 4 keys that are different and only for the LH.

Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
Sidokar #2950427 02/23/20 05:34 AM
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Thanks Sidokar for that detailed response. I'm becoming swayed now to take my teachers advice! (damn it)
This has been really helpful thanks everyone


So I say:

I have adopted this and made it my own: [clap clap]
Cut back the weakness, reinforce what is strong. [repeat]

[guitar solo]
[fade over incoherent yelps]
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950447 02/23/20 07:41 AM
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The traditional recommended fingerings are good for playing scale exercises and not much else in my opinion. I have yet to encounter a piece of music with scalar runs where the optimum fingering within the piece is the recommended scale fingering. So I don't think there is too much crossover from technical exercises to the actual music.

On the other hand there's no harm in learning the traditional fingerings. So what if they are harder than the easier alternatives? Learning challenging stuff is how you develop.

Obviously there might be exceptions for people with very small or large hands or some sort of disability.


Yamaha U1. Yamaha P-45. Yamaha RD-250 (a long time ago). smile
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
Tubbie0075 #2950450 02/23/20 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Tubbie0075

One of the reasons why I think adult students progress less quicker than younger students is that we think too much. We learned to be skeptical growing up, and we question everything, even people that we trust or should trust.


Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that adults tend to learn more quickly in the first year or so (because they have more developed neuromuscular cooordination and knowledge), then find that their progress slows right down - and the latter is partly a consequence of their rapid progress initially, where they skip through basic stuff because they can (or think they can).

There's a lot of over-thinking among adults when learning piano, which I never thought about until I started looking at posts in ABF. Unnecessarily over-complicating things (because surely music isn't as simple as rhythm + melody + harmony in that order, right?), trying out too many different things in attempts to find the "best way" (read: the quickest way), watching too many YT videos from teachers (or self-proclaimed teachers) all saying different things etc. It makes me glad that I learnt piano when I was a kid, and never questioned my teacher about anything unless I didn't understand what they wanted - and I was following a straightforward syllabus which all my teachers kept to, so there was no 'conflict of interest' (like a teacher believing that aural skills or scales & arpeggios were a waste of time, and should not have to be taught - yes: many teachers never teach them...). When I had my one music lesson on a different instrument as an adult, I had no difficulty approaching it as a kid would, and somewhat surprised myself that I could make so much progress in a half-hour lesson......but I digress.

OK, rant over. In terms of scales, there is only one simple 'rule' (which pertains to the anatomy of the hand and fingers) when it comes to classical piano: avoid using thumb or little finger on black keys, unless absolutely necessary. (I say 'classical piano' because jazzers have different priorities, which I needn't go into here). Any further 'refinement' on that which complicates learning - like completely different fingerings just because one note is different - is, IMO, totally pointless.

And you want to develop an efficient mechanism (including muscle memory and 'logic recall') that allows you to play them in any scenario that crops up in real music, because, apart from the technique gained, the reason why scales & arpeggios are taught by themselves in every reputable piano syllabus is that their mastery enables the student to learn pieces much more efficiently - and quickly (which surely is what all adults want wink ).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
bennevis #2950463 02/23/20 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis


Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that adults tend to learn more quickly in the first year or so (because they have more developed neuromuscular cooordination and knowledge), then find that their progress slows right down - and the latter is partly a consequence of their rapid progress initially, where they skip through basic stuff because they can (or think they can).

There's a lot of over-thinking among adults when learning piano, which I never thought about until I started looking at posts in ABF. Unnecessarily over-complicating things (because surely music isn't as simple as rhythm + melody + harmony in that order, right?), trying out too many different things in attempts to find the "best way" (read: the quickest way), watching too many YT videos from teachers (or self-proclaimed teachers) all saying different things etc. It makes me glad that I learnt piano when I was a kid, and never questioned my teacher about anything unless I didn't understand what they wanted - and I was following a straightforward syllabus which all my teachers kept to, so there was no 'conflict of interest' (like a teacher believing that aural skills or scales & arpeggios were a waste of time, and should not have to be taught - yes: many teachers never teach them...). When I had my one music lesson on a different instrument as an adult, I had no difficulty approaching it as a kid would, and somewhat surprised myself that I could make so much progress in a half-hour lesson......but I digress.


You´ve just described me. I solved the issue easily - unsubscribed from all piano teaching youtube channels (and there were lots of them), started reading this forum only during weekends, stopped posting in internet discussions so often (there was too much talking and little doing/practicing wink ), started trusting ONLY my teacher (that´s why I am spending soo much money on a good teacher right?). So much better.

Last edited by Tom97; 02/23/20 08:56 AM.
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950544 02/23/20 12:37 PM
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You want more reasons?

1. On the fingering chart it isn't even titled "Alternate Fingering". YOU are calling it that, with "Alternate" implying it is a replacement for. But it seems the guy who put up this chart fully expects you to be able to play the traditional fingerings.

2. On the LH is where these are different but several are actually the same for the continued nexte octave. The ones that are truly different would have you doing 2 turns in one octave instead of 1 turn. That can be thought of as inefficient but in favor of easier turns. Having the 4th finger on the black key makes for an easier turn imo. You need to practice playing smoothly the left hand 4-1 turn both on white keys because your LH needs to know how to move as well as the RH.

3. Sometimes I work on my piece for a long time and it's all memorized, I show up to my lesson, my teacher hears me and then picks up the pencil and changes my fingering. But I don't question her (unless she wants me to reach a 6th between the 2nd and 4th finger in that case I speak up) I change my fingering without resistance and it's actually not a big deal. Don't be resistant to change if you want to learn.

Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950600 02/23/20 03:31 PM
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The standard fingerings come from CPE Bach in his Versuch. The alternative fingerings, currently being called Natural Fingering, are from Chopin. Natural fingering has been championed by Heinrich Neuhaus and the Board's Kendall Taylor, among others. They are printed in the ABRSM Manual of scales and arpeggios as alternatives.

All scale fingerings should be practised, including C Major fingering in every key, but the most comfortable should be used for scales at speed and as a default. I came late to standard fingering but no longer use it beyond crotchets at 60-72 bpm. D Major was my critical scale. Whenever I used standard fingering in D Major on the way up I used always to end up using natural fingering (B Minor fingering) on the way down. Your teacher's advice would be lost on me.

There are passages in Beethoven and Mozart sonatas where the scale passages can't use either standard or natural fingerings and a more practical solution needs to be found. I see no more sense in using standard fingerings for scales than I would using those isolated solutions.

I don't know why your teacher might insist on standard when you already know natural fingering; the ABRSM would be happy with either. Does she insist on Czerny's fingering in Bach, for example?


Richard
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950607 02/23/20 03:53 PM
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Some interesting arguments here. I've been swayed by the 'just learn both' approach someone articulated here. I'm glad I've been exposed to this fingering as its focus on maximum ergonomics is something that appeals to me.


So I say:

I have adopted this and made it my own: [clap clap]
Cut back the weakness, reinforce what is strong. [repeat]

[guitar solo]
[fade over incoherent yelps]
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
wszxbcl #2950610 02/23/20 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wszxbcl
But it seems the guy who put up this chart fully expects you to be able to play the traditional fingerings.

That's a very good point that hadn't occurred to me before! Right, it's not offered as an 'either/or' scenario.

Last edited by HC110; 02/23/20 03:56 PM.

So I say:

I have adopted this and made it my own: [clap clap]
Cut back the weakness, reinforce what is strong. [repeat]

[guitar solo]
[fade over incoherent yelps]
Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
zrtf90 #2950835 02/24/20 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
The standard fingerings come from CPE Bach in his Versuch. The alternative fingerings, currently being called Natural Fingering, are from Chopin. Natural fingering has been championed by Heinrich Neuhaus and the Board's Kendall Taylor, among others. They are printed in the ABRSM Manual of scales and arpeggios as alternatives.



Unhapilly the standard fingering does not come from CPE Bach. He certainly started a more common usage of the thumb and formalized some elements of the future modern fingering but his fingering is typically a mix between the usual baroque fingering and a more modern one. Since I have read the Versuch, and you can check by yourself, that for example for G major he recommends 3 main fingering for the right hand: 1234-123 or 1234-343 (typical baroque) or his least preferred: 123-1234 (ie our standard fingering). For E minor, his fingering is 1234-123, also his preferred one for A minor.

The fingering proposed by T. Kelly are not the natural fingering system used by Chopin. It is simply a minor change for some LH keys in major and minor when the Chopin fingering system is mainly targeted at optimizing the right hand position on the black keys.

Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950837 02/24/20 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by HC110
Originally Posted by wszxbcl
But it seems the guy who put up this chart fully expects you to be able to play the traditional fingerings.

That's a very good point that hadn't occurred to me before! Right, it's not offered as an 'either/or' scenario.


My simple approach to this is that as a beginner you really do not need to learn several fingerings at this point. Unless you practice for hours on scales, with a 15mn slot you simply dont have the time to learn and practice several alternate fingering. There are better and more important staff to learn. As you become more advanced, you will adjust your fingering as needs be based on the specific requirements of the piece you are studying.

Re: Alternative Scale Fingering
HC110 #2950851 02/24/20 06:09 AM
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If there's one advice I'd give to all beginners - or near-beginners - it's:

KISS (principle)

Look it up if you don't know what it means.

And: ignore anyone (especially on ABF) who tells you that if what you're doing is not over-complicated (and that you need to learn everything all at once), you're doing it wrong.

And: get the basics right first. Leave the fancy esoteric stuff for when you're advanced. Or just.......leave it completely (like I do whistle).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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