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MP11SE sound setup issue #2946106 02/12/20 05:37 PM
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dmd Offline OP
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I am attaching the output (not fixed) of my MP11SE to a subwoofer.

The subwoofer is connected to my Focal monitors (see below).

The sound I get through my Focal monitors is appropriate for playing at midnight in my home and trying not to wake anyone up ….(i.e. very quiet).

However, when I attach my MP11SE output to a mixer and then the mixer to the subwoofer and the subwoofer to the Focal monitors … I can blast everyone out of the house but turning up the volume on the mixer.

Is that normal ?


Last edited by dmd; 02/12/20 05:42 PM.

Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
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Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: dmd] #2946132 02/12/20 07:50 PM
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Kawai James Offline
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Don, how are you connecting the MP11SE to the mixer? Which model of mixer are you using?

Originally Posted by dmd
However, when I attach my MP11SE output to a mixer and then the mixer to the subwoofer and the subwoofer to the Focal monitors … I can blast everyone out of the house but turning up the volume on the mixer.


Am I correct in thinking that the bolded "but" should actually read "by"?

Originally Posted by dmd
Is that normal ?


Perhaps' I'm overlooking, or simply do not understand the question. Increasing the volume on the mixer increases the volume of the sound produced by the speakers. I think this is the normal, intended behaviour, isn't it?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: dmd] #2946135 02/12/20 08:05 PM
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dmd Offline OP
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I am not sure what the name brand of mixer it is. MIX 5 ???

However, that is not really pertinent considering that the "problem" is the fact that WITHOUT the mixer in the "mix" (pun intended) I cannot get any volume above a whisper through the subwoofer and to the Focal monitors.

I should have mentioned that if I go straight to the monitors from the MP11SE (no mixer) I get more volume but I can set all sliders on the MP11SE to maxium without distorting the sound through the monitors.

So, clearly passing the sound through the subwoofer is reducing the volume at the monitors a great deal.

Note: I guess it just seems odd to me that if I utilize a subwoofer in my sound stream, it necessitates the use of a mixer in order to get a normal volume of sound through the monitors.

And yes … BUT = by laugh

Last edited by dmd; 02/12/20 08:11 PM.

Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: dmd] #2946136 02/12/20 08:15 PM
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Without knowing which mixer you're using or how you have everything hooked up, we'd just be guessing. You should be able to turn down the volume on the MP11se, on the channel input sensitivity, on the channel volume slider or on the main volume output (or a combination of all those). Make sure the input sensitivity is not too high because your sound will be distorted.
I have my powered monitors plugged into the main output of my mixer and my powered subwoofer plugged into the subwoofer output that way I can have more control over crossover and volume.
Let us know if you have it figured out smile

Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: dmd] #2946139 02/12/20 08:23 PM
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Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by dmd
So, clearly passing the sound through the subwoofer is reducing the volume at the monitors a great deal.


In which case, this is probably more of a "subwoofer sound setup issue" than a "MP11SE sound setup issue". Perhaps you can contact Yamaha and/or Focal for assistance or recommendations regarding how best to connect these products.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: Kawai James] #2946143 02/12/20 08:30 PM
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dmd Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by dmd
So, clearly passing the sound through the subwoofer is reducing the volume at the monitors a great deal.


In which case, this is probably more of a "subwoofer sound setup issue" than a "MP11SE sound setup issue". Perhaps you can contact Yamaha and/or Focal for assistance or recommendations regarding how best to connect these products.

Kind regards,
James
x


So …. judging from your suggestion (contact Yamaha or Focal) you believe it is not normal for my sound volume to deteriorate to such a large degree when passing it through the subwoofer and on into the monitors.

Is that correct ?


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: dmd] #2946149 02/12/20 08:49 PM
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Kawai James Offline
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Originally Posted by dmd
So …. judging from your suggestion (contact Yamaha or Focal) you believe it is not normal for my sound volume to deteriorate to such a large degree when passing it through the subwoofer and on into the monitors.

Is that correct ?


What happens when the Focal monitors are connected directly to the MP11SE (either by 1/4" or XLR)?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: Kawai James] #2946151 02/12/20 09:15 PM
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dmd Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by dmd
So …. judging from your suggestion (contact Yamaha or Focal) you believe it is not normal for my sound volume to deteriorate to such a large degree when passing it through the subwoofer and on into the monitors.

Is that correct ?


What happen when the Focal monitors are connected directly to the MP11SE (either by 1/4" or XLR)?

Kind regards,
James
x


It is louder but not over powering.

I could not blow up the monitors with all sliders on full volume.

When I run the MP11SE into subwoofer and connect subwoofer into monitors, the sound goes to whisper.

So … again … the subwoofer is having a significant effect on the resulting volume.



I guess I will just call Yamaha and ask about it.

It probably is normal.





Last edited by dmd; 02/12/20 09:17 PM.

Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: dmd] #2946154 02/12/20 09:31 PM
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Off-the-wall ---

Are you using XLR cables consistently?

...or is there a mix of XLR and TRS cables?

A debugging suggestion:

...put away the mixer.


...disconnect all speakers.

... Connect mp11 Left output to HS8S Left input.

...turn on HS8S.

... Set hicut and lowcut to 100 hz, set lowcut switch ON.

...set hs8s level , and mp11 level, halfway up.

... Play bass keys on mp11 -- should make sound at decent level.

. . . Connect hs8s Left Out to Focal Left input.

. . . Turn Focal Left on, set level halfway up.

. . . Play bass on mp11, should come from subwoofer,

. . . Play treble on mp11, should come out of Focal Left, at similar level.

If that much works, connect Right cables from mp11 to hs8s Right In,
and from HS8s Right Out to Focal Rght In.

Set Focal Right level same as Focal Left level. Turn on FocalRight.

. . .play MP11, everything should be OK.

You should get decent output level without the mixer. If not, something is mis-set, or mis-connected, or broken.





...


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: dmd] #2946945 02/14/20 08:11 PM
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Tog Offline
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Hi dmd,

I use Focal Alpha 80 monitors connected into their XLR balanced inputs (via balanced XLR cables) directly from my MP11SE's XLR outputs (Left and Right separately); these are controlled directly from the MP11SE's individual mixer section(s) (whichever are active); the Master Volume control has NO effect on the direct XLR outputs, as per its design parameters. I then connect my very old original REL Storm sub-woofer low level stereo input from the MP11SE's Stereo headphone output. This ensures that the sub-woofer receives the full signal range output from the MP11SE; the REL's frequency cut-off controls determine the crossover point and response curve with the MP11SE's Master Volume controlling its overall output volume into the REL.

This allows me to blend and mix the sound levels in real time. Overall volume and dynamic levels are realistic from the various piano samples with the Electric Bass etc. samples somewhat louder.

I prefer to operate the MP11SE's volume on the mixer section at around the 100 level to provide some 'headroom'. As the Focal Alpha 80's fundamental frequency response at -3 db is 35hz I find that I only need to operate the REL with the MP11SE's Master Volume set to approximately 50% output to provide some subtle sound enhancement.

Although common opinion is that AO to C2 on piano's do not have much energy at their fundamental levels I have found this to be inaccurate and would suggest that Bosendorfer, Steinway et al. would also contend that they produce significant sound output levels at their respective fundamental frequencies (at least from their Concert Grands). The sub-woofer is also capable of providing significant output levels when the output is transposed down an entire Octave and will easily shake the walls and floors!

On the Alpha 80's there is a basic level adjustment switch to increase sound levels if required. Although I prefer to make the adjustment on the MP11SE by switching ON the Octave setting (see the MP11SE's Edit Section 3 page 6) with the Octave range set to 0; this approximately doubles its output (to both the Alpha 80s and REL sub-woofer simultaneously).

I would imagine that your Focal CMS40's and the Yamaha HS8S sub-woofer should function in a similar fashion!

Hope that this helps.

Best wishes,

Tog


Standard: Absolute beginner. Currently butchering Bach BWV846!
Kit: Kawai MP11SE; Focal Alpha 80 monitors (pair); the original REL 'Storm' Sub-woofer from the early 1990's ( manufactured by BK Electronics Ltd on behalf of REL); Roland Z-Stand; generic studio style speaker stands; HP Grado SR60
Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: Tog] #2946975 02/14/20 09:52 PM
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dmd Offline OP
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Tog ….

Thank you for a very comprehensive explanation of your setup regarding the subwoofer/focal monitors.

Unfortunately, much of that is somewhat above my paygrade in terms of digestion of content.

I purchased a subwoofer in order to add a bit more on the lower end of the sound spectrum and it has given me that to a large degree.

However, recently I removed my mixer from my setup because I had developed a hum that I did not wish to deal with.

When I did that, I was informed by people in the industry that the proper way to hook my subwoofer into my system was MP11SE to subwoofer and then output from subwoofer to monitors.

So, I did that …. and the sound issue began.

I am certain I can do what you suggested … monitors connected to FIXED OUTPUT on MP11SE and subwoofer connected to L/Mono R OUTPUT on MP11SE. That works …. but I thought I would try the "right" way so I am pursuing it.

Maybe I was mis-informed and either way is fine.

However, right now I am at least curious to find out if my subwoofer is faulty just …. because it should not be.

Next week, I will be taking it in to the local deal from which I purchased and find out what he says.

After that …. who knows.

Thanks again for your help.

It may come in handy after next week's meeting.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: dmd] #2946984 02/14/20 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dmd
I purchased a subwoofer in order to add a bit more on the lower end of the sound spectrum and it has given me that to a large degree.
Great.

Originally Posted by dmd
When I did that, I was informed by people in the industry that the proper way to hook my subwoofer into my system was MP11SE to subwoofer and then output from subwoofer to monitors.
Rubbish; there are plenty of "proper ways" to hook up speakers and most have compromises so use what works best with your gear.

One downside of this "proper way" is that your audio signals pass through the cheap crossover network inside the sub, potentially degrading the signal to your nice loudspeakers.

As Tog notes, sending a clean signal directly to the nice monitors makes sense.

Originally Posted by dmd
However, right now I am at least curious to find out if my subwoofer is faulty just …. because it should not be.

Not sure if your subwoofer is faulty. I would try testing with a different source, like a cheap mp3 player and cables before lugging it to the store.

Re: MP11SE sound setup issue [Re: newer player] #2947048 02/15/20 04:27 AM
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dmd Offline OP
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Originally Posted by newer player
One downside of this "proper way" is that your audio signals pass through the cheap crossover network inside the sub, potentially degrading the signal to your nice loudspeakers.


Seems odd that the manufacturers of the subwoofer would put a "cheap crossover network" inside their product if it is expected to be utilized often.

Quote
As Tog notes, sending a clean signal directly to the nice monitors makes sense.


It does.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)

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