Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum R Lipp and Sohn 1905 restring?

Hello from NZ fellow piano lovers. I am after some advice.
I have a upright R Lipp and Sohn measuring just over the 160 height , born in 1905 . I am considering getting it restringed ? Restrung ? I have had a Tuner come out to look and initially he said it wasn't able to be done or worth it, and that we should look at getting a new one. On leaving our place he rang home base and said your not going to believe what I've just seen and its got under his skin. They has a team meeting regarding it and have come back and said yes its absolutely worth having it done. My understanding is that it's just the strings and pins that need replacement, sound board, bridges etc all good. My question is ....its a significant outlay is it worth it? ....my heart say yes my wallet says no haha. The trouble is the sound is amazing and that's my benchmark for a new one. I am told the craftmanship on these are outstanding and they have placed a value of around or just over the $10 000NZD mark. Many thanks in advance

You have a unique piano. I know the Richard Lipp upright of this height, I've actually played on one, and it is a phenomenal piano. I can see why it was phased out because it's rather cumbersome, but it's a rather special instrument.

Whether or not it's worth restoring depends on whether you are willing to put in the money. In terms of a financial return it's probably not worth it - you probably won't be able to sell it for what you spend on it. In terms of having a beautiful sounding piano, it probably is worth it.

Is the pinblock OK? I'm not sure how the pinblock is configured on those pianos.

Hey thanks Joe80. Yes the sound is phenomenal, and it is a rather cumbersome beast😁 unfortunately for me, I have grown up with and been spoiled by the both the beauty of the piano , but mostly by its sound ...so the benchmark is high for any new replacement. I've been quoted between 4-5000 to do and am weighing up if to buy a new one , Or spending the money on the existing. The pin block is in excellent condition.
The piano company who has quoted , if I decide not to go ahead , is very keen to get their hands on it.
My concern is if we do this is there something else likely to go wrong or is this the major work for the next 100 years 🤔

So you are trying to decide if you will resting it or get rid of it? How would you get rid of it? Sell it or just dispose/give away?

You say it sounds great. Why does it have to be restrung?

Hey Jack ...yes would like to restring but scared that other things will go wrong.
My understanding from their assessment is that the action, the pin board, the bridges and sound board are all good, the felts look good bar 2 keys in the high treble range. If we dont want to do they are quite happy to take off our hands and do ...definitely NOT disposing.
It's out of tune and the strings are old

Take off your hands? Do you mean they would pay for it?

I had time to look at your post better. They want roughly $3,000 to restring it and they say it's worth $6000 (US dollars).$6,000 retail? I've seen shops assign much higher values than an instrument would actually trade for, especially between individuals. Of course you are in a different country so I don't know if that holds true and I don't know that brand. I would guess the actual value is much lower.

I would get a very real idea of the value, personal and monatary. If you could sell it for twice as much, which I strongly doubt, as the restring costs, then its is worth restringing. If it's irreplaceable to you personally, then its worth restringing.

I suspect they will want the piano for free. Before I would give away a piano that I loved, I would look at all of the angles.

Can you get it restrung cheaper? You could seek a second (professional)opinion. Do you absolutely need a restring right now? Their analysis may not be unbiased.

If I liked the piano and everything was good except the strings but it wasn't financially feasible to pay for a restring, I would research and restring it myself.

In my opinion, the only things that really make a piano more difficult to restring than a guitar are the number of strings and the string cost. Bass strings might be $300 USD. Actually, I would probably never pay somebody that much to string a piano, when I could just do it myself.

A lot of rebuilding outfits ascribe a seriously inflated value to rebuilt instruments that are not in demand in the consumer market, and would command nowhere near that amount in reality. That doesn't mean it's worth rebuilding or not, it is just the reality of the market if resale value matters at all. For example, in the US, if you put $10k into an older vertical piano of a relatively unknown brand, it would probably sell for $2-3k when it's done, if it sells at all.

I can tell you that pianos being restrung sloppily by inexperienced/careless techs or do-it-yourselfers makes for a piano that's nearly impossible to tune cleanly, or to a high standard. Doing that across an entire piano is worse than doing nothing at all.

I am in agreement with Joe80 that Richard Lipp pianos can be wonderful. You are lucky to have such a piano. So I would certainly encourage you to explore the possibilities of restoring your instrument.

But first of all, there is no way I would proceed further with a tuner who first says that restringing is not able to be done or worth it, and a bit later says it absolutely is worth it. I think your first priority should be to get another opinion, ideally from a piano technician, someone you can trust. He/she may charge for the visit, but this will be worth it if you are serious about possibly proceeding with restringing.

It seems perhaps unlikely that an instrument of that age would require no further work beyond restringing. But your technician will tell you the state of things and give recommendations as to what needs to be done.

Do bear in mind that you don't necessarily have to restore every aspect of the piano completely. If the technician confirms that everything else is in a sufficiently good state that restringing will bring benefits even if you do nothing else, then I personally feel that could be money well spent. I rather doubt that for that money you could get a new piano which sounds as good as the Lipp.

BUT: If you do this work, you have to do it because you love the piano and you intend to keep it. There is no way that it would be worth 10K NZD. There is no way that you would get your money back if you sell it. You are not spending this money to create a financial asset. You are spending it to gain musical enjoyment.

And finally - I would definitely not encourage you to try restringing it yourself.

We are in agreement on doing it yourself. I would never aspire to do a sloppy job either.

A piano is the only instrument with owners afraid to restring. When I restring a guitar/banjo, I like nice even coils pulled against a good looking becket. I even think about downward pressure, on the nut, from the coils. For pianos, people seem to like 3 coils. Still, I've seen some ugly jobs that work just fine.

I'm curious, what sloppiness will make a piano nearly impossible to tune?
1. Use the correct tuning pins
2. Use the correct gauge strings in the right places.
3. Make sure strings are situated on the proper bridges and end pins.

All of that is obvious, so maybe I'm missing something. What are a few things that a DIY guy has to do to assure that proper tuning is possible?

If the OP thought about restringing, what would be wrong with buying some inexpensive material and restringing a few treble strings to see whats involved and how good the finished product is?

String coil spacing that isn't tight, poorly formed beckets, getting the best possible tuning pin heights, passing the string through the pressure bar at the optimal angle without rubbing against other strings (unless the piano has a poorly designed tuning pin field, where that becomes unavoidable and makes for more difficult tuning, in and of itself), and people just "winging it" without the proper tools on hand for field repairs (resulting in some of the aforementioned problems). If you've never restrung a piano before (I used to do it as a college work-study on some less "mission critical" practice room and donated pianos for practice), you'll be surprised how physically demanding the work can be, if you're just using basic hand tools. Also, it's not easy on your hands. If you're repinning the piano as part of the process, that opens up an entirely different can of worms that I don't have time to list at the moment.

Thanks for your reply,

OP may have no interest in DIY, but you pretty much listed the things I thought of. I think it's a pretty short list. There is so much information on the internet and videos that allow you to watch pros work.

I would not be surprised about the amount of physical labor. You are right, there are a lot of strings & I'm sure a novice would move much slowly. I wouldn't get in a hurry. I would enjoy the work, but everyone isn't like me.

Remember we aren't talking about a 10 year old Steinway. You know what happens to most 115 yo pianos that need work. What does OP really have to lose? They quoted $3,000!

I don't think it would be criminal to study for a while, buy a few tools and give it a try on a few strings. Im not trying to be contrary. I think life is short and so hate to pass up an opportunity to learn something new and do something great! I Imagine how fun it would be to play that old piano after you tuned the final string! wish OP lived next door to me. We would be stringing a piano next week!

Here is some finish work that I did and I'm no pro.
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...h-before-after-pictures.html#Post2939708
Here is my bench that I recovered.
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2941719/re-i-recovered-my-bench.html#Post2941719

Both were great projects!

Yes but that piano is wonderfull, highly regarded European brand.It has the kind of tone that we no
longer hear. In other words if restored by a professional it could be a treasure.
If one wants to practice on an old clunker perhaps a free old piano of a more common brand piano which has nothing to lose anyway.(to learn to work on pianos )
People do learn to tune and work thier own pianos on this forum and often practice on a.really old
piano.)
Jack these R Lipp and Sohn pianos are revered instruments so for right person it is a piano worth restoring properly.
I had an old 60's Kawai grand which needed to be restrung and probably other work as well.This
piano had done a great deal of traveling as well (crossed equator) yet was still used for a number
of years later.
Because it was a Kawai, it probably was not worth restoring .I sold it to a Kawai dealer, who said
they would work on it.However that has not been done and I believe it is being used as a practice
piano for kids who take lessons at the store.No doubt they replace the strings as they snap or show
signs of ware ?
Terminaldegree is a professional but I do not know if he restores pianos.

Like I said, I'm no professional and I don't know the value of the piano. I just know that most unrestored 1905 pianos in need of repair bring little or nothing. If this is an exception, how much do they sell for?

I tend to love old pianos regardless of value.

JackyjdbLipp, welcome to the forum. I think you've had some fine advice as far as the prospects of doing a fix-up on a very elderly upright. Certainly, I would get a second opinion from a qualified piano technician who is not in the pay of the company that you spoke with before, paid for by you alone, and with your best interest his or her sole concern.

This person can read the history of this instrument, and can also foretell its future (to an extent). They can tell you piece by piece the condition of strings, action, hammers and felts, trapwork, bridges, soundboard, case, and arrange any needed repairs in order of urgency. They can estimate the cost for each of these, within a pretty reasonable ballpark, and give you an estimate of this piano's current value in your local market, with and without fix-ups.

This is information that you will very urgently need to know before you venture into what could be a lengthy and costly hobby, and it really can only be done, meaningfully, by an skilled technician, in person. None of us can peer through the computer and diagnose your piano.

I am struck by the absence of any discussion about the use you intend to make of this piano. Are you an accomplished player? A beginner? Coming back to it after a long time away? A piano or voice teacher? A composer, just coming into your own? An accompanist for a church choir, or for stage performances? How much performance quality do you need? Different kinds of music call up very different skills from the player, and make a wide range of physical demands on the piano.

I don't know any of these answers, but I'll suggest that you consider whether it might be more productive for you, as a musician, to find a buyer who will love this piano the way you do, and buy a new, or at least a newer piano, which will have enough musically usable life left in it to serve you, with relatively little further expense or trouble. There is no hard rule that a piano can be played for 50 years and then it's no good anymore, but as a rule of thumb it is not so far off.

My first piano, of my own, was one similar to what you describe. How I loved its voice! Time had not been especially kind to the case or the keys, and any kind of work would have been beyond my purse anyway, back then. But, I also love my last piano (the strong possibility is that it will be the last; I'm ok with it). It can give me more, and it makes me give it more, and that's the way I like it.

Very best of luck to you, JackyjdbLipp! Please write back and let us know what happens, and don't hold back--- we never get tired of questions. And photos, and recordings....

"the sound is amazing "
That should help anyone understand the musical quality that is intrinsic to the build of of this piano.Although perhaps the funds are not there for a full restoration ,perhaps some work can
be done by an expert.,oherwise just leave it alone!
It is important to extablish the condition of the pinblock.

It does remind of a pre war Seiler upright that was given to me by my aunt when I was just a kid.
That piano also had a "sound that was amazing "

The value of the piano is not important when when the musical value is as a"priceless pearl ".

Pianos made at the turn of the century have my heart, but an upright has no monetary value, no matter how wonderful it is to play and hear. They are just too large, too heavy to move easily, and are not in style. Restored or not you will not find a buyer that will pay for their worth, and will likely have to pay to have it hauled away. Would I replace the strings? Yes, but I would not expect any re-sale value. Do it if you love it—- for itself.

I do know a well known rebuilder who rebuilds 19th century instruments and hopes to sell
these .He has been a very successful rebuilder for many years.He is also a well known
member of this forum.In his store he has some very large 19th Canadian upright pianos for sale
such as Heintzman and Bell .There must be some sort of market ?
R.Lipp and Sohn is not however some mediocre piano to "fiddle on".If it is to be done.,it
should be restored by the right people.

I really appreciate your feed back. This is definitely for the love and not to sell. I am also going to get a second opinion, like you I feel the same re initial response then later response...left me feeling like something somewhat shady going on. I would absolutely never attempt to restring this piano myself. So far my understanding...(and once again a second opinion here would be good) is that the pin block is in good order, the bridges, action and felts, bar two are all good and tight -I wish I could figure out how to post pictures !

Ladybird....everything you say resonates with how I feel about my piano ...just put far more eloquently then I have I would never entertain the idea of doing any work on it myself

Jeff Clef...I am returning to a love of piano, and have been very spoilt to be brought up with the rich vibrant warmth of playing on this piano , my daughter has also started playing. It is my hope that she will grow up with this piano and pass on to the next generation.

That puts it in a different light... or, should I say, in its proper light, in your home, for you and your family.

I hope you'll let us know what your second opinion piano tech finds.

It is true, posting photos to the site is something of a dark art. I haven't done it for quite awhile, but it seems to me that there is a little applet with a link on the front page. Follow the prompts, and once your photo is uploaded you can use a link in your post to point to it.

Ah! Here it is. For your reference: on the front page, right-hand column, a few inches down.

Uploading Photos

Hmmm... it seems that this feature has been reworked and considerably improved, although figuring out how to make it work it is still a little adventure in itself. If you can get your photos posted, you can consider yourself to have arrived. Good luck with it. And by the way, uploading audio files is another process, I believe. I'd really like to hear this piano.