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Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: pianoloverus] #2945671 02/11/20 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
[...]

Those really ready to play the FI don't worry about the 4 vs. 3 in terms of where the notes fall in relation to each other. They understand it's a non issue if one is careful about making the first notes in each 4 and 3 group coincide.


In spite of one or more of my earlier posts in this thread - one specifically to those who felt that in the interests of accuracy the polyrhythm should not be "sloppy" and hence be mathematically worked out - I still subscribe, essentially to what pianoloverus has stated more than once in this thread. That, to me, is the most reasonable, most efficient, and most effective way of approaching the problem, if problem there be. Get each hand independently secure in notes and rhythm and then just put them together. Voilà!

Regards,


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Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2945724 02/11/20 08:28 PM
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Well it seems we have the maths guys, and we have the "just go for it" guys. And as we know, it always helps to have a variety of practice techniques and approaches so that an individual can take their pick depending on their mindset.

Personally, I'd probably start with the slow maths stuff, and then move on to the go for it stuff. Mix it up a bit. Call me impure, but that's just the way I roll laugh.

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2945831 02/12/20 03:31 AM
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I wrote out 3:4 and 4:3. It's a fairly simple rhythmic pattern, and it's not difficult to play as slowly as you want. That's really all there is to it. The RH in the first two bars contains everything. The second pair has rests in the RH, so playing as written separates the two polyrhythmic components.

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Last edited by johnstaf; 02/12/20 03:34 AM.
Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2945979 02/12/20 12:26 PM
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We must live on different musical planets, johnstaf; I don't understand your examples.

Your first example shows, essentially, the equivalent of four sixteenth-notes against three quarter-notes; that's not a polyrhythm. Moreover, in the work in question, as I am sure you know, it's a question of four evenly-played sixteenth-notes in the RH against three evenly-played eighth-note triplets in the LH. Your example with dotted eighth-notes, eighth-notes and sixteenth-notes in the RH doesn't represent even articulation.

Similarly, your second example in 12/8 shows uneven articulation in the RH. Also in that example, you show the first RH eighth-note coinciding with the second LH dotted quarter. These don't relate to the even articulation of the sixteenth-notes in the RH of the Fantaisie-Impromptu.


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Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2946160 02/12/20 10:08 PM
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The first two examples have both parts of the 4:3 RH together as a rhythmic pattern.

If you play the third and fourth, are you not hearing 4:3 and 3:4?

Articulation is a different matter. I chose note value to be easy to read while being 100% accurate.

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2946169 02/12/20 10:45 PM
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[Linked Image]

Here is the same rhythm playing 3:4 and 4:3 in the RH.

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: johnstaf] #2946176 02/12/20 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
You probably need to play around with 4 against 3 rhythms until it becomes second nature. Try all kinds of ways of playing it that have nothing to do with the piece.


I think Johnstaf is no longer talking about the Chopin piece in his 4 against 3 example above. And that is why BruceD doesn't know why he's written things that way.

As for the Chopin piece, which is way above my level, just looking at the music I'd agree with Dolce Sfogato, that it's 6 against 8. And I would be mindful to NOT practice 3 against 4 for this piece because it's something that will need fixing later to sound 6 as the composer intended.

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: wszxbcl] #2946181 02/12/20 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wszxbcl

I think Johnstaf is no longer talking about the Chopin piece in his 4 against 3 example above. And that is why BruceD doesn't know why he's written things that way.

As for the Chopin piece, which is way above my level, just looking at the music I'd agree with Dolce Sfogato, that it's 6 against 8. And I would be mindful to NOT practice 3 against 4 for this piece because it's something that will need fixing later to sound 6 as the composer intended.


Indeed. I was attempting to address the idea the 4 against 3 was somehow more difficult to play slowly.

Practising 6 against 8 is just 3 against 4 played twice per group, so it's no problem to switch to 6 against 8.

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: johnstaf] #2946222 02/13/20 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf

Practising 6 against 8 is just 3 against 4 played twice per group



Haha! But I can't !! 3 played twice is not a 6 in my head. That's why it'd be a problem for me :-(

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2946586 02/13/20 10:36 PM
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I'm the original poster. Thanks everyone for the interesting discussion.

I thought I'd chip in with a practical contribution in the form of a video that shows me practising a section of the F-I very slowly playing the 4:3 polyrhythm. Yes - It sounds like crap and there are slip ups (I've only been learning it for about two weeks so far), but I think the 4:3 is reasonably even and is improving with time. It can be done slowly.

The question that has yet to be answered is whether or not practising slowly like this will help me play it at speed. My hypothesis is that it will help with accuracy and evenness. I will be alternating between practising it slowly and practising quickly once I'm comfortable playing both hands separately at speed.

Please feel free to chip in if you notice any deficiencies in my technique. I can't afford a teacher, so any construction comments you have will be most warmly received.

https://youtu.be/SRlNp_yoKPg

Last edited by L'Orfeo; 02/13/20 10:44 PM.

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Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2946593 02/13/20 10:52 PM
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Only slightly OT since this isn't primarily about learning this piece, however I think it is tangentially relevant because it is about playing musical editions of this work, but earlier today, Youtube sensation Kassia just published her performance of the rare A. Rubinstein Edition:

F. Chopin - Fantaisie-impromptu in C-Sharp Minor, Op. posth. 66 (A. Rubinstein Edition)

She writes about this edition, which is rarely performed:
Originally Posted by Kassia
Hi!:) At this time, in response to lots of requests, I prepared Chopin’s Fantaisie-Impromptu, Op. 66. This piece was published after Chopin died. For this piece, there are two versions which are mainly played by pianists. When Chopin died, he wished that his unpublished works and sketches would be burned. But, his friend Julian Fontana did not burn them. So, the first version of Fantaisie-Impromptu was published by Julian Fontana (1855 edition). Until the edition by Rubinstein, only this version was known for Fantaisie-Impromptu. In 1960, Rubinstein obtained the "Album of the Baroness d'Este" which had been sold at auction in Paris. In this album, he found the Fantaisie-Impromptu (1835) written by Chopin’s own hands, which was dedicated to Baroness d’Este a long time ago. Based on several reasons, Rubinstein was convinced that it was the final work of the Fantaisie-Impromptu. And, he found that there are significant alterations and improvements in harmony and style in Fontana’s edition. So, Rubinstein decided that the manuscript should be published. As a result, Rubinstein's edition based on the manuscript was published in 1962. When I checked YouTube, I found that the first version (by Fontana) has been played mainly. Personally, I like Rubinstein’s version. So, I prepared Fantaisie-Impromptu (Rubinstein Edition). I found that there is a sheet in IMSLP. But, it wasn't exactly the same as the Rubinstein’s edition. I will just attach the IMSLP version sheet in the description. I hope that you guys enjoy this performance!! Have a nice day!




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Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2946624 02/14/20 01:54 AM
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L'Orfeo :

You are doing just fine.
Probably for demonstration purposes you have also used the pedal.

In your normal slow practicing always play without the pedal.

Good luck !

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2946721 02/14/20 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by L'Orfeo
I will be alternating between practising it slowly and practising quickly


This IMHO is probably the best way of doing it, a "hybrid" way. I tend to practice like this.

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: Zaphod] #2946799 02/14/20 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Zaphod
Originally Posted by L'Orfeo
I will be alternating between practising it slowly and practising quickly


This IMHO is probably the best way of doing it, a "hybrid" way. I tend to practice like this.


Same here.

Regards,


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Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2946807 02/14/20 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by L'Orfeo
I thought I'd chip in with a practical contribution in the form of a video that shows me practising a section of the F-I very slowly playing the 4:3 polyrhythm. Yes - It sounds like crap and there are slip ups (I've only been learning it for about two weeks so far), but I think the 4:3 is reasonably even and is improving with time. It can be done slowly.
I only listened to the very beginning of the video. I certainly didn't think it sound like carp...in fact, I thought it sounded fine.

I don't think practicing it at that speed is a bad idea at all as long as you are mostly concentrating on playing the first note in each 4 vs. 3 group together. I think the speed in the video is around the slowest where one can concentrate on aligning the first notes in each group and then just trying to play the other notes in each group evenly. OTOH if you are thinking about where the notes fit in in relation to one another, the mathematical approach that some suggest, I don't think that will be useful when you practice it faster. If you have trouble when the tempo gets faster, try practicing the RH separately and get it up to speed.

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: pianoloverus] #2946967 02/14/20 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
OTOH if you are thinking about where the notes fit in in relation to one another, the mathematical approach that some suggest, I don't think that will be useful when you practice it faster.


Personally I would use it in preparation for practicing faster. I wouldn't use it when actually practicing faster. This is my experience how I do it, don't know about everyone else.

For me, the mathematical approach very slow gives me a building block so that I'm not just lurching through it faster even when arriving on the correct note notes together. It builds some kind of degree of muscle / brain memory so that the rough outline is achieved. At least, I find it does.

I'm a strong believer in different practice methods for different people, so others might not find the same.

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: L'Orfeo] #2946969 02/14/20 09:26 PM
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I haven't played FI in over thirty years, but if I were to prepare it now I'd practise it at maybe half of the speed in the video or slower. I'd probably alternate with full speed playing.

Re: Help Learning Chopin Impromptu Fantasie [Re: Zaphod] #2946991 02/14/20 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaphod
For me, the mathematical approach very slow gives me a building block so that I'm not just lurching through it faster even when arriving on the correct note notes together. It builds some kind of degree of muscle / brain memory so that the rough outline is achieved. At least, I find it does.

I'm a strong believer in different practice methods for different people, so others might not find the same.
It's possible to learn a piece practicing it in a very inefficient way. But it just will take longer and usually be less successful. Practicing the FI the way I suggested will not result in one "lurching through it" when one plays it faster and basically eliminates the 4 vs. 3 "problem".

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