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Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946224 02/13/20 04:08 AM
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Pete14 Offline
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You will never find an upright that’ll ‘sound/behave’ as good as a 9 foot concert grand.
Uprights are significantly compromised and have no where to go but extinct.
My onion is that the current hybrids, like the N3X, are already better than an upright in terms of the overall experience.

‘Hammers hitting strings’ is overrated. The truth is that in most modern-day artifacts ‘nothing hits nothing’. Remember the spinning hard drives; where there were many moving parts ‘hitting/moving’ something? Well, those parts are all gone and now SSD’s have no moving parts and -dare I say it- are better.

Granted, moving parts are essential to the piano, but as long as the ‘movements’ resulting from these interactions are replicated (as with the AvantNovus), the resulting outcome of producing sound by means of something hitting something can be omitted. Hybrids are not ‘all there’ yet, but they will be soon (5 or so years). If you don’t believe me, ask Kurzweil. He believes we will ‘leave’ our biological bodies for a form of virtual existence/consciousness, and that yes, this will be so much better than our outdated biological/analog bodies.
In this virtual realm we will be capable of doing anything; including flying past the stratosphere, onto the stars, and back. Can you do that now with your outdated arms and legs? laugh

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Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946238 02/13/20 05:14 AM
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U3piano Offline
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Pete14, I respectfully disagree with almost everything you just said. smile

It's all just a matter of opinion. In my opinion, actual Hammers hitting actual strings are far from overrated. In my opinion playing back pre-recorded samples is overrated, and modelling is even more overrated to me, in it's current state.

I have both acoustic and digital, and while the digital sound from a great vst just comes from a much better, larger, and way more expensive piano than my old upright, the latter is so much more inspiring to me, like night and day. It's like it's a magnet to me, which i'm attracted to, while the digital option is hardly motivating to me, even tough the sound of the recorded piano is fantastic.

Maybe in 25 years Digital piano's will have evolved to something that compares to a decent acoustic, who knows. But in five years, I don't think so.

And there is no point in comparing hard drives to musical instruments, I am sorry. :grin

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946245 02/13/20 05:47 AM
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Okay, but you must agree with me on the fact that our biological bodies are somewhat outdated, and that our virtual future selves 2.0 will be so much better! grin

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946246 02/13/20 05:50 AM
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Yes, that's why I said almost. grin

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946248 02/13/20 05:55 AM
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wink

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: AB99] #2946252 02/13/20 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AB99
Good point. I just have not found an upright piano that sounded as great as an approximate 7 or 9 foot Steinway, for example.


Tell *that* to The Beatles!

Greg.

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946616 02/14/20 12:35 AM
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Just because the Beatles used an upright does not mean that I would like an upright sound over a grand. Maybe if I am just playing 1 2 3 4 with chords - but even then - I am not sure that a grand piano would not have sounded better.

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: Pete14] #2946655 02/14/20 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
You will never find an upright that’ll ‘sound/behave’ as good as a 9 foot concert grand.
Uprights are significantly compromised and have no where to go but extinct.
My onion is that the current hybrids, like the N3X, are already better than an upright in terms of the overall experience.
‘Hammers hitting strings’ is overrated . . .


Wow, where do I start . . .?


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Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: Craig Richards] #2946697 02/14/20 07:38 AM
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Gombessa Offline
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Originally Posted by Craig Richards
Originally Posted by Pete14

My onion is that the current hybrids, like the N3X, are already better than an upright in terms of the overall experience.


Wow, where do I start . . .?


Please start where we all want you to start--let's talk truth about Pete14's onion.


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Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946720 02/14/20 09:02 AM
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(Disclaimer, I own a digital in addition to an acoustic and I play it every day)

The N3X costs the same as a good brand new upright. In 5 years the upright will still sound like a piano but the N3X will sound like an artifact. In 15 years the upright will still sound like a piano and the N3X will be cluttering up the basement next to the dried out paint cans.

Logic tells me that a digital can never be as good as the real thing because its purpose it is to replicate that thing. The virtual world is virtual - it is not reality.

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946723 02/14/20 09:12 AM
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While I agree that the acoustic will simply be a better instrument, the digital hybrids, particularly the AGs, hold their own in the test of time. The N3 is fast approaching 15 years and it still sounds and plays like a fine piano (and plenty of people still own and use them). They're an exception to the idea that digitals are 4-5 year obsolescence due to technology advancement and depreciation.


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Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946792 02/14/20 11:34 AM
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Thanks, Gombessa, for partially agreeing with me.

Also, I’d like to clarify that my ‘hammers hitting strings’ remark is specifically directed at uprights.

Whenever I say that uprights are compromised and that the very top hybrid options are better, I get a ‘nothing can come close to hammers hitting strings’ remark. The problem with this notion is that we’re isolating one aspect about the acoustic piano theorem, yet disregarding all the others, like: action (prior to hitting strings), size, form factor, etc.

When we look at the upright from a wholistic perspective, it simply falls short despite ‘hammers hitting strings’.

It falls -literally- short in the action department, the string length/position, and yes, even in the form factor; which is a necessary evil in order to make it ‘fit’.
So yes, the upright was conceived in the name of saving space and money, and the only way to do that was/is by slashing the heck out of the budget!

The N3/X uses a grand piano action, takes advantage of its inherent form factor, and with a little help from Pianoteq, it can sound, feel, and behave phenomenally acoustic. So who cares if there are no hammers hitting string.

Incidentally, once Kawai releases a baby grand Novus with -hopefully- a real, solid spruce soundboard, I wonder how a puny U1 will compare to it despite its hammers hitting strings.

P.S.

Perhaps uprights at the level of the U3 and above are a bit better, but the average, run of the mill spinet and small upright sucks, and is therefore on its way out.

P.P.S.

This is simply my onion; there’s no need to fight over it. I respect other people’s onions, too. grin

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: Pete14] #2946811 02/14/20 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by pete14
Thanks, Gombessa, for partially agreeing with me.

Hey! I did too, where's my thanks? smirk

Quote
The N3/X uses a grand piano action, takes advantage of its inherent form factor, and with a little help from Pianoteq, it can sound, feel, and behave phenomenally acoustic.


I agree on the action, yes, it is better than an upright action. But i disagree on the "can sound phenomenally acoustic" part, especially with a little help from Pianoteq. I think there is so much going on in and around an actual acoustic piano, modelling is very far from beeing able to replicate all that, that's why i think sampling is still a much better technique than modelling in 2020, some kind of mixture of both is probably best.

Quote
Incidentally, once Kawai releases a baby grand Novus with -hopefully- a real, solid spruce soundboard, I wonder how a puny U1 will compare to it despite its hammers hitting strings.


Ill still take the puny U1 over that Novus, which will still play back the same recorded samples over and over, while the U1 is actually creating sound. (Unless i needed the grand action for the repetition for advanced playing)


Quote
Perhaps uprights at the level of the U3 and above are a bit much better

Hey look, a similair onion! eek

Quote
This is simply my onion; there’s no need to fight over it. I respect other people’s onions, too. grin


Isn't it great when onions are respected and we can all have our own bag of onions and still get along! smile

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946821 02/14/20 12:20 PM
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Pete14 Offline
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U3piano, did you notice how I set your U3 apart from the rest? You’re welcome.
And yes, also, thank you for ‘partially agreeing with me’.
Your onions are indeed robust! wink

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946844 02/14/20 01:37 PM
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Well. it's not exactly playing back recorded sounds exactly as they are. It's producing sound based on those recordings, which are digital. But when a recording gets converted to analog to enter our world each time it gets reproduced it's slightly different. Great VST by the way. But I got burned with VI with Ravenscroft for iOS which is very buggy.

Last edited by lorez; 02/14/20 01:39 PM.
Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: lorez] #2946856 02/14/20 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lorez
Well. it's not exactly playing back recorded sounds exactly as they are. It's producing sound based on those recordings, which are digital. But when a recording gets converted to analog to enter our world each time it gets reproduced it's slightly different.


If the d/a conversion is the reason the sound is slightly different each time the sample gets played back, I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946861 02/14/20 02:59 PM
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Perhaps the conversion proximation combined with the element of physical modeling can lead to an alternate yet not fully defined dimension; therefore, creating a paradox that cannot unravel in its totality but rather hold its secrets for posterity.

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946864 02/14/20 03:08 PM
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I feel so outdated trying to understand what you just said.

Re: VI Labs Modern U - new upright [Re: newer player] #2946874 02/14/20 03:57 PM
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Yeah, not only the conversion per se but the analog nature of the world. We cannot (yet) process digital signals directly so we have to convert them to analog and send them as current to mechanical parts. So you have, one, the current which is not exactly the same and two, the mechanical parts (in this case the speakers) which cannot move twice the same way. That makes even digital pianos capable of infinite variations. And here I’m not even considering the human element as in the subjective experience, attention etc.

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