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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: P W Grey] #2944887 02/09/20 06:44 PM
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UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
I was thinking of adding weight to the back of the tenor bridge, and/or possibly a riblet strategically located to reduce the amplitude of the low tenor notes, thereby easing the transition to the bass. I like starting there because it's a lot easier to do and is also quickly reversible if ineffective. Sometimes a similar treatment can be done at the bass bridge too. A quick experiment is to use mini vise grips on a bridge pin to see if any improvement. I would also consider adding weight to the bass hammers (mini binder clip on shank experiment) since the physical weight of bass hammers is significantly less than the tenor hammers right there. All of which is much easier than shimming the bass bridge for DB.

Just my .02

Pwg


Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. smile

Well... mess with the low tenor, which sounds fine, so it matches better with the upper bass which really isn't bad, just could use some improvement? Btw Arledge rescaled and provided the wound strings. He only changed the lowest tenor note to wound, so I take it as a sign that the tenor is pretty good.

The "not great" sound of the upper bass is noticeable to me without comparing to anything else, and since it is the only place with less than desired DB, everything points to me to shim the bridge. I have had good success doing so just above the treble break and have to admit I am looking forward to seeing what it might do to the upper bass. You can call it an experiment. Since I will be using hide glue, it is also reversible.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2944951 02/09/20 09:39 PM
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P W Grey Offline
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Looking forward to success when the deed is done. 😊

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2944964 02/09/20 10:39 PM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by P W Grey
I was thinking of adding weight to the back of the tenor bridge, and/or possibly a riblet strategically located to reduce the amplitude of the low tenor notes, thereby easing the transition to the bass. I like starting there because it's a lot easier to do and is also quickly reversible if ineffective. Sometimes a similar treatment can be done at the bass bridge too. A quick experiment is to use mini vise grips on a bridge pin to see if any improvement. I would also consider adding weight to the bass hammers (mini binder clip on shank experiment) since the physical weight of bass hammers is significantly less than the tenor hammers right there. All of which is much easier than shimming the bass bridge for DB.

Just my .02

Pwg


Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. smile

Well... mess with the low tenor, which sounds fine, so it matches better with the upper bass which really isn't bad, just could use some improvement? Btw Arledge rescaled and provided the wound strings. He only changed the lowest tenor note to wound, so I take it as a sign that the tenor is pretty good.

The "not great" sound of the upper bass is noticeable to me without comparing to anything else, and since it is the only place with less than desired DB, everything points to me to shim the bridge. I have had good success doing so just above the treble break and have to admit I am looking forward to seeing what it might do to the upper bass. You can call it an experiment. Since I will be using hide glue, it is also reversible.


Curious:
Is that bass bridge that you may shim cantilevered?


RPT
PTG Member
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2945071 02/10/20 09:32 AM
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UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Yes, cantilevered. Pretty rare to find a piano that isn't. I know what Del says about them.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2945077 02/10/20 09:50 AM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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The
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Yes, cantilevered. Pretty rare to find a piano that isn't. I know what Del says about them.

They are abundant sorry to say and I use Del’s mod fix every time I can.
If there is a rib near the upper bass bridge for support consider a wedge or spring to help prop it up a little?
Easily reversible and a mm or less could make a difference.


RPT
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Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2945105 02/10/20 11:10 AM
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UnrightTooner Offline OP
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I thought of that and may try just to see. I am concerned that it might not be appropriate for two reasons. First, the cantilever is short there and so would take more force to have an effect. Second, it would transfer the sound to a part of the board that is less lively, which is why there is the cantilever in the first place.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2945115 02/10/20 11:34 AM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I thought of that and may try just to see. I am concerned that it might not be appropriate for two reasons. First, the cantilever is short there and so would take more force to have an effect. Second, it would transfer the sound to a part of the board that is less lively, which is why there is the cantilever in the first place.


As an aside: I have used small spring under bridge on rib in the killer octave area where there is considerably more potential string bearing because of the density of unisons as opposed to bass.
It does not take much to get a perceptible improvement - (it don’t always work very well)
There is no increase measurable in bearing but I don’t think that matters. It just adds some much needed responsiveness to the board.
The very small area of contact of spring on board in bass likely will not transfer much sound where you don’t want it.
The attempt to use cantilever to take advantage of a more lively part of the board is a grand idea that is doomed to fail imho add to that the presumed added benefit is longer strings that gives the impression of better sound also is self defeating because it demands a very short backscale that limits bridge mobility. (Del’s ideas restated)
Another aside:
I have modified based on Del’s ideas these things several times and done rescaling only to find that slightly shorter bass strings with a longer backscale sounds great. Longer is not necessarily better.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2945123 02/10/20 11:52 AM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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One other spring thought since your concerned about maintaining cantilever integrity:
If there is a support beam and rib near the upper bass bridge, use a spring to wedge up the bridge where the cantilever is glued and mounted to the board, slightly add some spring response to the entire bridge assembly.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2945576 02/11/20 02:03 PM
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Gene Nelson Offline
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For what it’s worth: here’s fun a wasted effort story to laugh at:
One other thing I tried but it was so difficult I ruled it out for future efforts.
I purchased some very powerful industrial rare earth magnets that have strength ratings.
A rectangle about 1-1/2” x 1” by 1/4 in thick was rated to attract or oppose 35 pounds if memory serves.
They come with predrilled countersunk screw holes.
One under bridge on rib and one opposite on support beam set to oppose I thought would add mass as well as lift and responsiveness and possibly a little bearing.
Interesting idea but mounting them in a rigid position was just about impossible.
If I had the right tool and coordination and mounting device it may have worked, someone with more skill than me may be able to do it.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2945652 02/11/20 05:38 PM
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UnrightTooner Offline OP
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So regain crown at any cost? I dunno. Do we really know what effect crown itself has on tone? There is little doubt in my mind that DB is important, but crown? Like, imagine a perfectly crowned board (whatever that might mean) but not enough DB. Would you then try to make the board crown more?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2945751 02/11/20 09:57 PM
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P W Grey Offline
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I believe that crown was introduced (way back when) to:

1) Add stiffness tobthe structure without adding more mass (weight)

2) To control (to some degree) what would happen to the panel when subjected to humidity changes

3) To act as a sort of "expansion joint" control mechanism

4) To create tension in the structure and (hopefully) help it vibrate

Spruce and pine and hot hide glue was what they had to work with. If they had carbon fiber and epoxy back then they probably would have used it.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: "Oilcanning" Soundboard Skeptic [Re: UnrightTooner] #2945753 02/11/20 10:15 PM
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Chernobieff Piano Offline
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Peter,

You got it.

However I would disagree with point 4. Compression makes the board have more density. Before the compression method was discovered, soundboards were made with the grain going in the opposite direction. They were based on the tension principle ( like the tuning fork epoxied to spruce demo) from Ruckers to Broadwood. One reason for the switch , i believe, from a tension board to a compression board is because wood is 25% stronger in compression.

Also, I am fortunate to hear the difference of when a board has no compression to when compression develops. The difference is amazing.

-chris

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 02/11/20 10:17 PM.

Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
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