2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
68 members (Adam Edin, Beowulf, Bruce In Philly, anotherscott, chopinetto, Boria0, andredatele, Carey, Beemer, 13 invisible), 651 guests, and 514 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Dampers - how high?
#2944200 02/08/20 07:39 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,048
G
5000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,048
Just curious for a tech's perspective after seeing a bunch of YouTube videos of concert grands in competitions/performances. With the sustain pedal fully depressed, on some grands the dampers rest high enough off the strings where they no longer bob up when a key is pressed. While on others, there's still a little vertical "bump" that is visible when a key is pressed.

Is there any standard for raised damper height, and is it something that typically comes up in regulation? It is this something nobody cares about?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
(ad)
Piano Tuning
Re: Dampers - how high?
Gombessa #2944253 02/08/20 10:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,534
G
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,534
Consider there are flat damper felts and wedges. All need to lift high enough to clear strings otherwise there could be buzzing or slight muting. I use the wedges for a guide. Also consider that longer strings have greater travel when vibrating.
Excess damper lift translates to heavier touch.
Why the key and pedal lift dampers different on your video examples could mean a necessary compromise because of action geometry issues or it could imply the need for more regulation.
Steinway concert grands can be more challenging than others.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Dampers - how high?
Gombessa #2944275 02/08/20 11:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,048
G
5000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,048
Thanks Gene. I get that important touchpoints are raising the dampers high enough to clear the strings given the damper profiles, and also to account for the movement of the string vibrations.

But is it a concern to regulate the dampers to clear the keystick press? As a layman, I would guess that it would be ideal to clear the keystick press so as there isn't a weird bump near the bottom of the stroke when the damper is fully depressed; but that you wouldn't want it any higher than that because it would result in a delay or slack in dropping the dampers back on the strings?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Dampers - how high?
Gombessa #2944283 02/08/20 11:48 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,534
G
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,534
Clearing the keystick press will always result in a thump that is felt when key is fully depressed.
It is the damper up-stop rail that minimizes this and in the ideal piano action it can be regulated so that the thump of the rebounding damper is minimized to the point that it is not annoying.
On the typical Steinway action the up-stop rail needs to be set higher because the damper tray pivots on a different plane than the damper lift levers that are attached to it.
If the up-stop rail were set low enough on these pianos so that the thump were at the desired minimum there would be a conflict with the key lift and damper tray sustain pedal lift.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Dampers - how high?
Gombessa #2944301 02/08/20 01:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,048
G
5000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,048
Got it, thanks. Apologies if I'm oversimplifying, but what I think I'm hearing is that ideally, you do want dampers-up to rest a little bit below the height of the dampers on a full-down keystrike, in order to slightly dampen the bottoming out of the key. But on some pianos, the action geometry requires the dampers to be a little higher than that, so they might end up resting at or slightly above the key-down height.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Dampers - how high?
Gombessa #2944324 02/08/20 01:54 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,092
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,092
Greetings,

I like to have the pedal lift the dampers to the same height as the keys do. If higher, you feel the under-levers landing on any depressed keys when the pedal is released, if lower, the under-lever collides with the key end when the pedal is down and a note is played. It collides when the lever is lifted during a normal key-stroke at a lower speed and position, but isn't felt as much.

Ideally, the upstop rail will be close enough to the under-lever at its highest so that the recoil cannot be felt in the key, but as was mentioned, the Steinway tray lifts the under-lever's pin when it raises the dampers. This means it needs to leave room for the under-lever to travel when both the tray is lifted and the key is played. This amount of freeplay is often excessive on a Steinway, due to this dual axis arrangement.
Regards,

Re: Dampers - how high?
Gombessa #2944331 02/08/20 02:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,534
G
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,534
I’m not certain I understand but I’ll say this:
It might be better to think more about the damper lift levers as opposed to the damper blocks.
Ideally the vertical position (height above key bed) of the damper lift levers should be the same with a fully depressed key as with a fully depressed sustain pedal. That’s a target for regulation imho.
Variations in action geometry could require slight compromises.
One variation is the tray and lever pivot differences I mentioned, another is the key ends at rest are not parallel to the damper tray that lifts the levers.
Another can be a warped damper tray.
Another can be a tray return spring located at the extreme end of the tray making the tray lift unevenly.
Hope I’m making sense


Last edited by Gene Nelson; 02/08/20 02:06 PM.

RPT
PTG Member
Re: Dampers - how high?
Gombessa #2944341 02/08/20 02:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,942
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,942
This adjustment will be affected by the amount of lost motion in the pedal.


Semipro Tech
Re: Dampers - how high?
Gene Nelson #2944358 02/08/20 03:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,048
G
5000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,048
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
I like to have the pedal lift the dampers to the same height as the keys do. If higher, you feel the under-levers landing on any depressed keys when the pedal is released, if lower, the under-lever collides with the key end when the pedal is down and a note is played. It collides when the lever is lifted during a normal key-stroke at a lower speed and position, but isn't felt as much.


Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
the vertical position (height above key bed) of the damper lift levers should be the same with a fully depressed key as with a fully depressed sustain pedal. That’s a target for regulation imho.


Super, thanks for your patience, I think I'm on the same page now. I have a hybrid (digital) with weighted damper lift levers (no actual wire, damper heads or felts, of course), and I've set the damper tray to lift the levers to the exact height of the fully depressed keys (and this being a digital, I don't have to worry about any effect on strings, damper head height/distance, etc., only the feel of the keys), and this sounds like it's the correct coarse target to shoot for.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Dampers - how high?
Gombessa #2944808 02/09/20 04:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,534
G
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,534
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
I like to have the pedal lift the dampers to the same height as the keys do. If higher, you feel the under-levers landing on any depressed keys when the pedal is released, if lower, the under-lever collides with the key end when the pedal is down and a note is played. It collides when the lever is lifted during a normal key-stroke at a lower speed and position, but isn't felt as much.


Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
the vertical position (height above key bed) of the damper lift levers should be the same with a fully depressed key as with a fully depressed sustain pedal. That’s a target for regulation imho.


Super, thanks for your patience, I think I'm on the same page now. I have a hybrid (digital) with weighted damper lift levers (no actual wire, damper heads or felts, of course), and I've set the damper tray to lift the levers to the exact height of the fully depressed keys (and this being a digital, I don't have to worry about any effect on strings, damper head height/distance, etc., only the feel of the keys), and this sounds like it's the correct coarse target to shoot for.


I had no idea that your were going to use this information for a digital. I have zero experience with digitals so, I hope it works for you. Maybe let us know??


RPT
PTG Member

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Beginner looking for purchase advice
by savagekeys - 12/05/20 11:21 AM
Fazioli soundboards
by Withindale - 12/05/20 10:08 AM
Practice and resting
by Ubu - 12/05/20 05:25 AM
Strange phenomena....
by piano_primo - 12/05/20 12:55 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,279
Posts3,030,850
Members99,491
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4