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Quote
Originally posted by Furtwangler:
I would probably think that, too - if I lived in Norway!
Why do you think I am here in Southern California? laugh


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I can't think of any Norweigan piano manufacturers either...

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I thought the purpose of this post was to help America.

I,m not an American.

But clearly the best way always to help your own country in troubled times is to buy your own countries native products and not buy imports.

Scharlott is wrong to imply buying imports helps the native economy.
For every dollar spent on an import a large % will go out of the country.
For every dollar spent on native goods then the greater % of that dollar remains in the country and can be re-invested.
This is just simple economics.

I believe ,aside from top end Steinway, that there are many other excellent piano manufacturers in USA. They have not marketed
themselves very well in Europe and this is a pity.

We are fed up with Kawai & Yamaha and would love to see the Yanks coming over and marketing their pianos .
I was certainly impressed with Kohler & Campbell but would like to see more suppliers.

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Originally posted by Mocheol:


We are fed up with Kawai & Yamaha and would love to see the Yanks coming over and marketing their pianos .
So how many Charles Walters can I send you laugh


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Originally posted by Mocheol:
I thought the purpose of this post was to help America.
WRONG!

The purpose of the post was humor...and to help piano DEALERS.

I'll leave helping the American economy to others.


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Those who advocate a "spend away!" strategy may be forgetting how many people don't actually have any savings in the sense of cash or bank accounts, once you subtract credit card debt, mortgages, student loans, car payments, and so on. These people, at least--who are, in fact, the overwhelming majority--would certainly be wise to consider "saving," i.e. paying down debt, rather than spending. I'm still waiting for politicians to acknowledge this uncomfortable truth.

Now, if you happen to have a huge wad of bills under your mattress, or a bulging bank account, or a chest of dubloons buried in the back yard, by all means, go bargain-hunting for pianos and whatever else catches your eye.

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Originally posted by kluurs:
I can't think of any Norweigan piano manufacturers either...
Knudsen
Brødrene Hals
Julius Berg
P.C. Brantzeg
Martin Bredesen
Emil Cappelen
J. Eilertsen
John Enger
Forenede Pianofabrikker
Grøndahl
Hellström

.....just to mention a few....


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Mochoel,

We now have a big, interdependent world economy. Protectionist thinking by all countries such as you are recommending that Americans engage in hurts all countries - it would be kind of like saying that I should help Kentucky's economy by buying only things made it Kentucky - such thinking would hurt the national economy. The reason why all countries benefit from unfettered buying and selling with each other is the principle of comparative advantage, which is taught in courses on world trade. It's a foundation principle of economics.

Brad

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Steve Cohen

What the heck is WRONG with you.
Your initial posting was a clear rallying call to your flag.
If your just advertising pianos why not say so at the start.

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Scharlott.

Yes indeed this unfettered buying and selling which has caused the global financial crisis originated in USA.
No country has benefited in this crisis and many countries, but mainly USA, are in deep deep financial doodoo because of precisely your so called foundation principle of [voodoo]economics.

Im not advocating protectionism.
If you took the trouble to read my posting properly you would understand that what Im advocating is old fashioned patriotism of support your own country first when its in trouble.
By all means trade with others,but imposition of external trade tariffs is not what I advocated.

I,m Irish and buy Irish when I can.

Were I American I,d buy American when I could.

Any self respecting patriot could do no less

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Originally posted by Steve Cohen:
Patriots:

Now is the time to come to the aid of your country. Our economy needs stimulus. Now [b]you
can make a difference.

Go to your local piano emporium and buy a new piano. Not tomorrow...now! And take money out of savings to pay for it.

A chicken in every pot, a piano in every foyer.

Do it for your family. Do it for your country. [/b]
The banks would prefer that you keep the money in the bank, and use a loan to finance the piano. At
least this would expand the money supply.

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Originally posted by U S A P T:
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Originally posted by TheSockPuppet:
[QB] Now is the time NOT to buy a piano or anything you do not absolutely need.
Ever heard of the paradox of thrift? If not, google it. Banks have been infused with billions of dollars. Are they hoarding it or sitting on it? Heck no. They are buying distressed assets right and left. They aren't loaning it out like they were supposed to, but they are taking advantage of the biggest buyer's market in half a century. You should too.

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In these uncertain economic time [sic], now is the time for you to worry about your bank account
Why? Money in the bank is like a pile of firewood. It does little or nothing unless you do something with it. You can stare at it and worry about it and watch it rot, or use it (metaphorically speaking) to fire up a furnace and start an industry.

Quote
not the piano salesman's.
The piano salesman doesn't want you to worry about him. He exists to help you solve your problem. If you walked into my store, I'd probably sit you down and teach you a bit about what money is and is not before I tried to sell you a piano. If you worry about money, you don't understand it. When you convert your money to assets that work for you, the peace of mind that comes means that you've made an informed decision.

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As a piano consumer, or consumer of any kind, you never should worry about the welfare of the salesman.
Can I take that a step further? You need to strike the word "worry" from your vocabulary. Worry is, simply, "fear of the unknown." If you don't understand money, then money owns you. You are frozen and you pick up the herd mentality. You hoard it when everyone else is hoarding it and it loses value faster.

In a herd mentality, never do what the herd does. During the bubble, the herd was motivated by greed. Now, during the panic, the herd is motivated by fear -- advocating just the advice you are dispensing. When everyone hoards enough cash, the value of cash will plummet. A deer caught in headlights usually gets run over.

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The consumer and salesman have opposite interests.
I agree. My interest would be to help you make an informed decision based on knowledge of the facts. Your interest would be solely in price, perpetuating the illusion that your problem gets solved at the moment you pay for something. However, the transaction is only the beginning. It's the return that makes you wealthy. Wealth can't always be measured in dollar terms. Sometimes the return comes in inspiration, which would make you an entrepreneur.

Quote
Only a salesman would tell you otherwise.
Yep. Can't agree more. You are all about price paid. If you buy a cord of firewood but don't know how to make fire, then you better not pay too much for it.

Even though I am no longer in sales, I always felt that a piano was an investment in peace of mind. Peace of mind (freedom from worry) is in really short supply these days. Buying a big wooden three-legged box that requires no electricity to operate seems like a wise investment to me because each time I use it it forces me to be creative. The notes I hit or the interpretation I express through my fingers is the definitive act of problem solving.

I can also help you with your golf game.
This is extraordinarily irresponsible advice. The banks will lose their shirts, and get more government
money later. How much government help do you think individuals who overextend themselves can expect.
They may be committing financial suicide.

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Originally posted by scharlott:
Mochoel,

We now have a big, interdependent world economy. Protectionist thinking by all countries such as you are recommending that Americans engage in hurts all countries - it would be kind of like saying that I should help Kentucky's economy by buying only things made it Kentucky - such thinking would hurt the national economy. The reason why all countries benefit from unfettered buying and selling with each other is the principle of comparative advantage, which is taught in courses on world trade. It's a foundation principle of economics.

Brad
In my opinion protectionism is overrated. Look at the baltic dry index. International shipping fell
off a cliff last year. Right now currency exchange volatility and lack of letters of credit has
done as much to hamstring international trade as smoot-hawley ever did.

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Originally posted by DarkGreenChocolate:
Those who advocate a "spend away!" strategy may be forgetting how many people don't actually have any savings in the sense of cash or bank accounts, once you subtract credit card debt, mortgages, student loans, car payments, and so on. These people, at least--who are, in fact, the overwhelming majority--would certainly be wise to consider "saving," i.e. paying down debt, rather than spending. I'm still waiting for politicians to acknowledge this uncomfortable truth.

Now, if you happen to have a huge wad of bills under your mattress, or a bulging bank account, or a chest of dubloons buried in the back yard, by all means, go bargain-hunting for pianos and whatever else catches your eye.
This is the problem. It is the debt. There can be no recovery until the debt overhang is either
directly repudiated or inflated away.

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Originally posted by Mocheol:
Steve Cohen

What the heck is WRONG with you.
Your initial posting was a clear rallying call to your flag.
If your just advertising pianos why not say so at the start.
I believe he was joking. I, for one, enjoy tongue-in-cheek humor.

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Mocheol,

By "protectionist thinking" I meant if individuals in all countries (without any government intervention) chose only domestic products when possible, international trade would be harmed and the benefits to the world economic system that that derive from the principle of comparative advantage would be to some degree negated. Ireland especially is dependent on there being a robust international economic system based on flourishing world trade.

Brad

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Originally posted by Mocheol:
Thats a funny posting.
Surely you mean buy an American made piano.
Anyone buying a non-American made piano is merely shipping money out of the country
Except for the profit made by the U.S. dealer, the money that goes to the truckers that brought the piano to the store and to the end customer's home and all the other bits and bobs that end up in American hands.

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scharlott,

The internationalist argument will only work on a level playing field.
This is not the case because of self interest . Both EU and USA artificially distort, by state intervention, subsidy or tax relief, all fields of economic activity.

This is a music forum and I dont want to digress too much.
I still hold the view broadly speaking that national self interest is best served by purchasing goods made in ones home state.

Anyway,best remedy for recession is go out buy a brand new piano ,especially one that you cannot afford.
This will dispell all gloom and lift the economy , therby enriching you to clear the repayments on that grand piano more quickly.

This argument cannot be contested.

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I would rob a bank to buy a grand, but my bank has only toxic mortgages.

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Originally posted by Mocheol:
scharlott,

The internationalist argument will only work on a level playing field.
This is not the case because of self interest . Both EU and USA artificially distort, by state intervention, subsidy or tax relief, all fields of economic activity.

This is a music forum and I dont want to digress too much.
I still hold the view broadly speaking that national self interest is best served by purchasing goods made in ones home state.

Anyway,best remedy for recession is go out buy a brand new piano ,especially one that you cannot afford.
This will dispell all gloom and lift the economy , therby enriching you to clear the repayments on that grand piano more quickly.

This argument cannot be contested.
Just one piano?

I think we can do better than that. Here is how we can jump start the piano economy. We will
start as a humble piano storage company that provides a nice climate controlled home for pianos
temporarily. In addition to storing pianos we also have units that we lease out. Let us call
our new company The Piano Bank. We can sell stock to fund our initial round of pianos. But
storing and leasing pianos doesn't pay enough to satisfy our shareholders. They demand 10%
growth a year and the piano market is not large enough to accommodate it.

In order to continue growing we decide to start buying pianos directly to expand our units
instead of waiting for demand from clients. To fund this venture we will sell bonds and slip
the ratings agency a big bribe so that we have a AAA rating. But now there is a small problem.
Pianos are in high demand, mostly because of us, and we end up paying up to 3 times list for
them.

Free from the constraints of demand our piano facilities grow rapidly, and we use this asset
base to borrow ever increasing amounts of money to fund our expansion. We then use much of the
fresh capital to begin buying our competitors, and convert them over to our business model.
Soon there are only a few large piano banks, since the only companies that can afford to compete
with us are doing the exact same thing.

We are growing even faster than before. We buy pianos by the container full. It becomes well
know in the industry that we don't even look in the containers and soon they are filled with all
sorts of rubbish. Some are even empty, but we are making a fortune on paper and so we do not
care. The shareholders are thrilled and our stock skyrockets, and everyone is happy. But there
is a problem. What do we do with all the pianos? We know we over paid for them and some don't
exist. We might even face criminal proceedings for fraud if it is found out. So we go to
congress and have them make pianos exempt from normal mark to market rules. So we never sell
any pianos, we just keep them on the books at 3 times their value.

This works well for a while but at some point we cannot get any more loans for expansion.
Perhaps a raise in the interest rate, or maybe one of our bond issues fail to sell. We can no
longer finance our continued expansion and the share price peaks. Shareholders start asking
questions. The SEC launches an investigation which we manage to delay indefinitely due to our
influence. Then the unthinkable happens. A rumor starts that our pianos are over valued and
that some of the pianos in storage for clients have been sold or lent out to make ends meet.
Whispers abound that many of our pianos unplayable or nonexistent. There is a run on the
piano bank as everyone rushes to take their piano out at the same time.

We call the government to intervene and they shut down the piano market for a few hours, and then
guarantee the value, and existence of all the pianos on our books. Now we are insolvent and
everyone knows it, but it doesn't matter since we have the backing of the government. In panic
federal regulators send in piano techs to evaluate our pianos, and to their horror they are in
terrible shape. In fact many have been damaged irreparably and cannot be sold at all. Other
pianos are completely fictitious and the containers are empty. To make matters worse we have
taken out huge insurance policies that have been sold to all the other leading piano companies.
If we go under the insurance policy chain will unwind and bankrupt the entire industry. We
have become too large to fail.

The government calls the heads of all the major piano companies together to decide what to do.
They then blackmail congress in order to pass an emergency bill in order get us enough cash to
ward off bankruptcy for a few months, but everyone knows its only a matter of time. At this
point the government kindly steps in and offers to set up a quasi government entity. Lets call
it The Bad Piano Bank. At the taxpayers expense the bad piano bank takes all the pianos off
our hands for a little more than we payed for them. Their charter is to hold the pianos until
the market recovers enough to sell them. Unfortunately, it proves too expensive to evaluate
each piano to see if it is salvageable and so all pianos are trucked off to an abandoned salt
mine. The Piano Bank, on the other hand, is made whole. To celebrate our huge windfall We
will take the corporate jet to a spa and spend the government money on golf and booze.

And, a fitting reward for fraud, our CEO gets a treasury post.

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