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Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: draft] #2942311 02/03/20 05:49 PM
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keystring Offline
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Going to what both of you are saying, (Stubbie and mostlystrings)

It is absolutely true that in "basic theory" we are given a cut and dry formula of how music works. If we're given music to look at, at all, then the examples are carefully chosen to reflect these things, and anything out of that norm is simply not shown. I was warned, when I met a new teacher just as I was launching into that theory, that it put music into a box and could become a trap. I can see that now. Nonetheless, some basic first patterns to hang one's hat on were also handy. I was bothered when the tritone was taught as always being part of a V7 which always went to the "I" chord. Not all tritones do that: in written music a tritone can also be part of one of the French, Italian, German (nationalties) aug6's where what you play sounds like C7 but that Bb is spelled A# and no, it does not "go to" the "I" chord. You can also have a series of "dominant 7" chords that dance around doing other things.

What I did not like was being given (by the books) these stereotypical patterns, which made everything safe and predictable, and being made to believe that all music is this way. I would have preferred that they say that these are common patterns, but music is much more varied than that. Fortunately I did learn that. It's not at all an easy issue.

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Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: draft] #2942482 02/04/20 06:42 AM
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draft Offline OP
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Thanks for all the replies people.
.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by draft; 02/04/20 06:44 AM.
Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: keystring] #2942500 02/04/20 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring

It is absolutely true that in "basic theory" we are given a cut and dry formula of how music works. If we're given music to look at, at all, then the examples are carefully chosen to reflect these things, and anything out of that norm is simply not shown.


Yes, that is a major flaw in the approach. Even seeing the examples notated in sheet music is a problem, because what we really need to learn is what the theory SOUNDS like. Otherwise it's just an intellectual exercise.

Advanced students and teachers can probably audiate from the sheet music, but that is not available at beginner and intermediate levels.

Technology now offers solutions to this problem, embedded mp3s and videos like the one I linked. If I were teaching I would include listening within the homework (knowing most students won't listen, just as they won't practice! Hee, hee.)


gotta go practice
Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: TimR] #2942562 02/04/20 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by TimR
[quote=keystring]
Technology now offers solutions to this problem, embedded mp3s and videos like the one I linked. If I were teaching I would include listening within the homework (knowing most students won't listen, just as they won't practice! Hee, hee.)


I accompany a singer.
He is very good at reading sheet music ... I suck.

He hands me sheet music which I'll look at for key and basic chord structure.
Next is to listen to a recording.

I feel it's the recording that actually helps me to learn the song.

Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: draft] #2942586 02/04/20 11:38 AM
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The modulations in the refrain are very straightforward.

The first phrase is obviously in F major, complete with perfect cadence to confirm the key ('light of the world"). The second phrase is back in D minor ending with an imperfect cadence ("shine before all"). The final phrase goes back to F major (modulation confirmed by the V-I progression around "see the good"), but ends in D minor with a perfect cadence ("glory to God").

This sort of analysis should be covered in any decent music theory textbook. I personally like Butterworth's Harmony in Practice, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.

I should also point out I'm not a fan of the harmonization presented above. For instance, in "shine before all", I would prefer to say on D minor for "shine be-" and then switch to G minor for "-fore". But harmonization does have a component of personal taste.

Last edited by Dr. Rogers; 02/04/20 11:41 AM.

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Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: Dr. Rogers] #2942621 02/04/20 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Rogers

I should also point out I'm not a fan of the harmonization presented above. For instance, in "shine before all", I would prefer to say on D minor for "shine be-" and then switch to G minor for "-fore". But harmonization does have a component of personal taste.


That is the type of thing I'm trying to learn.

Guess it would be called "chord substitution" or adding chords when there is not much movement it seems between chords.

Thanks for reply.

Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: Dr. Rogers] #2942628 02/04/20 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Rogers
The modulations in the refrain are very straightforward.

...................

This sort of analysis should be covered in any decent music theory textbook. I personally like Butterworth's Harmony in Practice, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Since some of us did talk about textbooks, I'm wondering whether you read the rest of the discussion. Actually, that particular full score was not there yesterday. That said, something felt a bit niggly iffy about this particular score so I did some sleuthing. I found this one:

https://musescore.com/user/17020/scores/3257231

In it, the refrain for the two opening and closing lines of music go generally:

FCF F Bb A7
Dm7 Am7 Dm7 gradually shaping into Am7 by the instruments.

Note the Am7's. The FCF is rather brief.

The FCF is a one measure brief excursion into a major feel but that phrase ends on an A7, the V7 of the key of Dm

The whole piece has a modal feel to me. I suspect that it is an old piece that began in the middle ages which got modernized in the harmonizations over time. A well-known example of this is Greensleeves.

The FCF can as well be III VII III rather than I V I but it's also effective in giving this brief "F major" feel ... more like a "major mood" within the predominantly minor music. But if it ends in A7, that is the Dominant of of Dm.

I studied some "decent theory textbooks". I didn't find this as straightforward as you say, when we only that the smaller snatch. Then Tim's audio showed that same feel of ambiguity. I suspect that the score itself that the OP has been using may not be the best.

Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: draft] #2942645 02/04/20 02:14 PM
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Never mind.

Last edited by Dr. Rogers; 02/04/20 02:15 PM.

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Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: Dr. Rogers] #2942649 02/04/20 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Rogers
Never mind.

It probably would have been interesting to read.

Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: AZNpiano] #2942653 02/04/20 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano

Whoever uses that example to teach modulation should be shot. Terrible example of modulation.


there ist no modulation. It's a modal playground. ;-)
And that's the reason, why the op schouldn't insert a D-minor cadence in bar 2 of the refrain. It disturbs the sound, but I repeat myself.

Last edited by Andymania; 02/04/20 02:32 PM.

excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: Andymania] #2942676 02/04/20 03:32 PM
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...it is a typical today's Jazz-Point-of-view, that more chords and preferably many substitutions are better than the less...


excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: draft] #2942697 02/04/20 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by draft
I accompany a singer.
He is very good at reading sheet music ... I suck.

He hands me sheet music which I'll look at for key and basic chord structure.
Next is to listen to a recording.

I feel it's the recording that actually helps me to learn the song.

If possible, please get yourself a good piano teacher who can also work with you on theory and composition. Do not rely on hearing a recording to learn a new piece/song, because that is the worst possible way to go for an accompanist. Accompanists need to be able to sight read new music instantly.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: Dr. Rogers] #2942704 02/04/20 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Rogers
This sort of analysis should be covered in any decent music theory textbook. I personally like Butterworth's Harmony in Practice, but it's not everyone's cup of tea.

I've gone through 5+ music theory textbooks by myself and I've yet to run into one that teaches analysis in a consistent, coherent manner. The textbook I used during my undergrad years was SO BAD, the professor actually spent class time criticizing the author. And by year two, the other professor just did his own examples on the board, which made vastly more sense.

Also, not all music theorists agree on how to do such analyses. I think the problem is that most of the authors who wrote those textbooks were not very good at writing, period.

Originally Posted by Dr. Rogers
I should also point out I'm not a fan of the harmonization presented above. For instance, in "shine before all", I would prefer to say on D minor for "shine be-" and then switch to G minor for "-fore". But harmonization does have a component of personal taste.

Brilliant minds think alike.


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Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: Andymania] #2942708 02/04/20 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Andymania

there ist no modulation. It's a modal playground. ;-)

Succinctly exactly.

Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: draft] #2942729 02/04/20 05:13 PM
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I think another problem is with the definition of modulation. How much does the modulation have to last before we label it a modulation?? 4 measures? 8 measures? Two phrases? When Bach wrote sequences that go through the circle of fifth progression, did that count as modulating five times, even though it took place in the space of 8 bars??

I'm more confident with the use of modulation when the key change occurs structurally, like in the exposition of the Sonata form. You know it goes from tonic to either the dominant or relative major. The feel of modulation is embedded in the structure of the music itself, and it's not something haphazardly done. Borrowed chords (or modal borrowing) do not constitute a key change, in my opinion.


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Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: draft] #2942770 02/04/20 07:02 PM
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Maybe somebody can tell me how to upload an image. I've managed to get it into the gallery but I can't bring it in here directly. It ends up looking like this.

[img]http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2942757/mini-analysis.html#Post2942757[/img]

This is the link there: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2942757/mini-analysis.html#Post2942757

I'm thinking about Dr. Rogers' idea of standard and analysis in the basic way. This is what I see.

You have two phrases in the "classical" call-answer, 4 measures each, which is also textbook. One ends on a Im V imperfect cadence (the call) and the other ends on a V7 Im perfect cadence. The cadences concluding each phrase go Dm to A, and A7 to Dm. So overall in general we are still in the key of D minor.

However, that first measure going into half of the second is F C7 F. I don't know whether we can call this a cadence. It does establish a tonality - a strong "feel of F major" with the dominant 7 chord of F supporting it. You kind of have both. The red in my diagram, that's the actual main progress of the music in the call-answer which is in D minor. But that really strong F major supported by its dominant is also there - but it doesn't go anywhere.

I think this bit of music is cool and interesting.

I'm curious about the history of the music.

(It's frustrating not being able to bring in the image.)

Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: AZNpiano] #2942929 02/05/20 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by draft
I accompany a singer.
He is very good at reading sheet music ... I suck.

He hands me sheet music which I'll look at for key and basic chord structure.
Next is to listen to a recording.

I feel it's the recording that actually helps me to learn the song.

Do not rely on hearing a recording to learn a new piece/song, because that is the worst possible way to go for an accompanist. Accompanists need to be able to sight read new music instantly.


Yes. His comment surprised me. In my experience singers are never good at sheet music unless they are also a fairly accomplished instrumentalist.

I wasn't advocating listening to the recording to learn to play a piece, especially for an accompanist.

I do think listening to recordings is an essential part of theory education. At beginner level I would think you look at the sheet music, mark it up with chords and progressions, then follow the score while you listen to the recording.

One problem will be that available scores are often simplified or even wrong compared to the performance.


gotta go practice
Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: TimR] #2942952 02/05/20 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by TimR
Yes. His comment surprised me. In my experience singers are never good at sheet music unless they are also a fairly accomplished instrumentalist.


Very small church and we are not accomplished musicians. (volunteers)

The singer took piano lessons for many years and learned to read very well.
He can tell you what every little mark of a score means.
.... but with that being said.

The teacher he learned from taught him a style I do not particularly care for.
Play the chord (closed) in left hand and play the melody in right hand.

He conducted the choir for probably 25 to 30 years.
His brother, learning from same teacher, played the organ.
Seems music always clashed with choir, as he was trying to follow melody note for note.

The brother gave it up for medical reasons and choir broke up.
The singer, who was conducting the choir, decided to sing and play piano alone.
Again, results often did not come out very well.

I played guitar 30 to 35 years ago.
( I'm 66 ... singer approx 10 years older )

I played lead in a small group and always had the ability to pick out
the guitar lead parts from recordings.

Never learned sight reading ... and not something I'm interested in at this stage.
So I do better listening to a recording of a song and setting up a lead sheet that gives me the chords.

Started with piano approx 10 to 12 years ago.
Used my guitar knowledge of chords to begin and listen to lot's of pianist
to pick up things by ear.

Though I would not play like my recording below to accompany someone,
it is an example of the style I like to play.

https://app.box.com/s/c7tra1jdiquc1ifugtlpeklxg324iwoy

Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: draft] #2942959 02/05/20 09:29 AM
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Someone just helped in in how to embed an image. Same as yesterday, but with an embedded image.

So in regard to the "classical" analysis idea that was mentioned, this is what I came up with yesterday
[Linked Image]

copying what I wrote yesterday

You have two phrases in the "classical" call-answer, 4 measures each, which is also textbook. One ends on a Im V imperfect cadence (the call) and the other ends on a V7 Im perfect cadence. The cadences concluding each phrase go Dm to A, and A7 to Dm. So overall in general we are still in the key of D minor.

However, that first measure going into half of the second is F C7 F. I don't know whether we can call this a cadence. It does establish a tonality - a strong "feel of F major" with the dominant 7 chord of F supporting it. You kind of have both. The red in my diagram, that's the actual main progress of the music in the call-answer which is in D minor. But that really strong F major supported by its dominant is also there - but it doesn't go anywhere.

That's one way of seeing it.

Re: Minor Progression ? [Re: draft] #2943065 02/05/20 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by draft

The teacher he learned from taught him a style I do not particularly care for.
Play the chord (closed) in left hand and play the melody in right hand.

He conducted the choir for probably 25 to 30 years.
His brother, learning from same teacher, played the organ.
Seems music always clashed with choir, as he was trying to follow melody note for note.

Started with piano approx 10 to 12 years ago.
Used my guitar knowledge of chords to begin and listen to lot's of pianist
to pick up things by ear.



Ah, I see. I used that style to play church services, in my first few months of piano lessons. Close position left hand, mostly I, IV, V chords, right hand melody. That will never work with a choir trying to read SATB. Later I tried to make it more interesting and eventually was able to do the simpler hymns SATB. But I don't do church piano anymore.

Yes, at your age learning to read more than lead sheets is certainly doable but perhaps not worth the effort.


gotta go practice
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