2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
74 members (1957, Bellicapelli, anotherscott, Blague, Abdol, 17 invisible), 595 guests, and 376 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 36
L
L'Orfeo Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 36
I've decided to learn the Chopin Impromptu Fantasie: 45 years old, teacher-less and returned to piano playing a few months ago after a long hiatus. I don't think that the piece is beyond my abilities as I prepared for AMEB Grade 8 before adulthood and work got in the way.

Started playing this 2 days ago and am comfortable enough playing separate hands at speed in certain sections. My difficulty is in combining the two hands with the incessant three-against-four polyrhythms. I can play them very, very slowly with accuracy, but they become uneven if I try to speed things up at all. Any suggestions or practice techniques?

Thanks!

Nathan

btw - Yes - this work has become a piano cliche, but I've never had a crack at it. Please don't beat the old "overplayed' drum when responding to this thread.

Last edited by L'Orfeo; 02/01/20 08:42 PM.

Kawai K300
Returning to piano practice after a long break
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,894
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,894
You probably need to play around with 4 against 3 rhythms until it becomes second nature. Try all kinds of ways of playing it that have nothing to do with the piece.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 29,721
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 29,721
I think playing the 4 against 3 is much easier when played fast, reasonably close(80-90%)to the final desired speed. Just make sure the first note in each group of 4 and 3 coincide and the rest will take care of itself with worrying about when to play the notes. It that's difficult for you technically, try practicing each hand separately first and then putting them together at a reasonably fast speed.

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 178
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 178
Practice each line with a metronome heavily. Eventually it'll just come together on its own. It's slow and irritating, but it gets easier with practice.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,962
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,962
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think playing the 4 against 3 is much easier when played fast, reasonably close(80-90%)to the final desired speed. Just make sure the first note in each group of 4 and 3 coincide and the rest will take care of itself with worrying about when to play the notes. It that's difficult for you technically, try practicing each hand separately first and then putting them together at a reasonably fast speed.


Originally Posted by D959
Practice each line with a metronome heavily. Eventually it'll just come together on its own. It's slow and irritating, but it gets easier with practice.


Both suggestions are good, I think. That's certainly the approach that I would take.

Yes, it's a piano cliché, perhaps, and it's often played with varying degrees of skill. I think that one of the reasons it's considered overplayed is that it is a beautiful piece when played well and so, everyone wants to play it. I, for one, wouldn't criticize anyone who would like to play it; I'd - someday - get around to polishing it off myself.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,069
B
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,069
A few thoughts. You mention you're back at piano just a few months after a break of many years. You realize that to practice pieces like Chopin's opus 66 is not reasonable before at least warming up to and/or practicing way less difficult works as well. Any teacher would recommend you work on simpler pieces for a while until you master them so they sound very well. About tricks, I recommend practicing as close as at tempo as you can as you improve the piece, with suddenly going ppp with the RH only, then LH only, so to hear the rhythmic inconsistencies you need to work on.

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,484
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,484
Originally Posted by L'Orfeo
I've decided to learn the Chopin Impromptu Fantasie: 45 years old, teacher-less and returned to piano playing a few months ago after a long hiatus. I don't think that the piece is beyond my abilities as I prepared for AMEB Grade 8 before adulthood and work got in the way.

Started playing this 2 days ago and am comfortable enough playing separate hands at speed in certain sections. My difficulty is in combining the two hands with the incessant three-against-four polyrhythms. I can play them very, very slowly with accuracy, but they become uneven if I try to speed things up at all. Any suggestions or practice techniques?

Firstly, I hope you realise that the difficulty of the F-I is way above AMEB grade 8 level.

As you have had a long hiatus, maybe you should get your finger technique up to speed with other pieces first before tackling the F-I, because playing a fluent 4:3 polyrhythm requires you to be able to play both RH & LH parts perfectly fluently so that you can 'break loose' and 'desynchronise' at will, in order to synchronise just the notes that need to be synchronised, while both hands are still playing perfectly evenly........


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,824
Originally Posted by bennevis
Firstly, I hope you realise that the difficulty of the F-I is way above AMEB grade 8 level.

Well, it's apparently one level up - AMEB Diploma level.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,284
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,284
It’s on the AMEB Certificate of Performance syllabus, which comes between grade 8 and A.Mus.


Du holde Kunst...
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 36
L
L'Orfeo Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 36
To those of your who question whether or not I'm ready to play F-I, thanks for your concern. I have a BMus from Melbourne University where trumpet was my instrument, not piano. From my time there I learnt enough to know that I'm not a very good pianist and will never be great. However, playing piano is something I enjoy, the F-I is a wonderful piece and I believe it's an achievable "stretch" for this point in my technical development.

I've been playing piano a few hours a day for the last few months and am capable of playing music I learned when preparing for grade 8. F-I is the next level up on the AMEB syllabus; Cert of Performance as stated by Currawong. About seven years ago I considered preparing for an AMus and began learning Beethoven's Pathetique and Percy Grainger's Irish Tune from the County Derry (sounds easy, but the voicing demands are a real challenge). I've picked these pieces up again and am playing them better than I remember them sounding in the past. That's not to say they're anywhere near performance ready.

Sorry for the "self defense" post, but I think it will give people some background when offering me more help in relation to this thread.

Thanks to those of you who have suggested practice techniques and tips already. I haven't applied these yet, but certainly will. Always open to more advice.




Last edited by L'Orfeo; 02/03/20 02:44 AM.

Kawai K300
Returning to piano practice after a long break
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,962
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,962
Another practice tip that I could add to those that I already find useful is to play, hands together, but playing only those left hand notes that fall on the beat, perhaps even exaggerating an emphasis on each beat. Doing so helps train your mind and fingers to be precise about those notes that do sound together in both hands which is a step towards playing both hands evenly when all the notes are played.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,484
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,484
It's training the brain that is as much a problem as the fingers. As always, I speak from experience: I started dabbling with the F-I long before I was technically ready for it, but I did manage to master the art of desynchronisation and resynchronisation at will, such that when my fingers were up to speed, my brain was ready for anything......including all sorts of funny polyrhythms, like that in Chopin's Op.9/1.

It's worth tackling one bar at a time - in many bars, the hands are playing together on just four notes in each hand. Make a strong accent on those notes, and ensure they are perfectly together, then 'even out' the remaining notes in each hand. After a while - ranging from weeks to months - it becomes second nature, not just in this piece, but in every other piece involving tricky polyrhythms. Even with ratios involving prime numbers, like 5:7 or 11:17 grin.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,924
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,924
Chopin wrote an easier piece using 4:3 rhythm for method of methods series. It’s called nouvelle etude 1. Since it was written by the same composer and for a series from many famous composers that aimed to provide a method for advanced pieces I think it may help to learn alongside FI. FI is beyond me atm so no idea if it will help but good luck !

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 127
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 127
L'Orfero,

there is another well known trick for that:

start knocking the triplets rythn on the piano with one finger, just knock in whatever manner is easiest to you, when you will get it automated (Takes few seconds), play on the piano the right hand.

later on do the opposite.

as bennevis said, brain training is important and what you do here is brain training.

you just can even do it without a piano, knockin with a fist on the table, or whatever is convininet to you. The clou is to make your brain (and the finger will go after it) to play evenly triplets in one hand and sixteenth on others. Start is very very slow tempo with knocking without the piano. if you will get it right, than when you will sit on the piano, you will have no problems to play it together smile

and remember, absolutely necessary to set-up rythm in one hand firstly, so the other one joins to already existing rythm. If you will start with both hands together, you will not get anywhere.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 29,721
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 29,721
Originally Posted by MrKaramba
and remember, absolutely necessary to set-up rythm in one hand firstly, so the other one joins to already existing rythm. If you will start with both hands together, you will not get anywhere.
Chopin did that in the intro but it's not really necessary. When played reasonably fast all one has to do is make sure the first note on each beat in both hands coincide. I don't think anyone who is advanced enough to learn this piece gives the 4 vs. 3 much thought. When 4 vs. 3 appears in much slower music it's more difficult.


Last edited by pianoloverus; 02/03/20 07:17 PM.
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 471
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 471
Originally Posted by L'Orfeo
To those of your who question whether or not I'm ready to play F-I, thanks for your concern. I have a BMus from Melbourne University where trumpet was my instrument, not piano. From my time there I learnt enough to know that I'm not a very good pianist and will never be great. However, playing piano is something I enjoy, the F-I is a wonderful piece and I believe it's an achievable "stretch" for this point in my technical development.


If you consider it a "stretch", does it make sense to expect that you'll play it well?

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,121
D
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,121
it's not 4 against 3, it's 8 against 6.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 832
Z
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Z
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 832
If you can play them slowly but then they disintegrate with speeding up, I'd crack the metronome out and do incremental speed practice. If you notch it up really gradually, you hardly notice the speed difference.

I found that if I don't use a metronome then when I try and "speed things up", I'm actually speeding them up by ear a lot more than I should do. This is where the metronome comes in. The ear can find it hard to tell the difference beteen 120 and 124, but the metronome doesn't lie.

Also, each time you practice start on the slower speed, or at least a slow speed.

Ignore if you're already using one.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 29,721
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 29,721
Originally Posted by Zaphod
If you can play them slowly but then they disintegrate with speeding up, I'd crack the metronome out and do incremental speed practice. If you notch it up really gradually, you hardly notice the speed difference.

I found that if I don't use a metronome then when I try and "speed things up", I'm actually speeding them up by ear a lot more than I should do. This is where the metronome comes in. The ear can find it hard to tell the difference beteen 120 and 124, but the metronome doesn't lie.

Also, each time you practice start on the slower speed, or at least a slow speed.

Ignore if you're already using one.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 29,721
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 29,721
Pianists who are advanced enough for this piece do not practice it slowly hands together. This is much harder than practicing at a speed closer to performance tempo. If you consider the 4 vs. 3 a problem on this piece you are misunderstanding things. Just make sure the first note of each group of 4 and 3 coincide and the rest of the notes fit in where they should(assuming you can play the groups of 4 and 3 evenly).

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Newbie discoveries and breakthroughs
by SunnyKeys - 04/23/21 09:11 AM
Bach Prelude tempo
by Hakki - 04/23/21 08:59 AM
How do they do it?
by sheana - 04/23/21 07:54 AM
How to Play Blues Piano
by BB666 - 04/23/21 03:02 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,486
Posts3,085,687
Members101,286
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5