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Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2941488 02/01/20 07:25 PM
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Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Sweelinck #2941492 02/01/20 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck

So I agree with Mr. Rosen. Diverse harmonies should not, however, be conflated with chromaticism.
That doesn't make any sense. Saying that chromaticism is being used in writing harmony or whatever else isn't a "conflation", it's a description.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2941508 02/01/20 08:03 PM
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You don’t need chromatics to construct dissonant harmonies. With the notes in a C major scale you can make Fmaj7, Cmaj7, Dm7, F9, .... without the use of chromatics. And you can superimpose a consonant chord over a dissonant bass note all within the scale. Bach did use chromatics to construct dissonant harmonies, but I think he more often used other sources of dissonance. As I’ve already alluded to, I think some of the controversy in the thread has to do with the usage of the term chromatic.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2941525 02/01/20 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
You don’t need chromatics to construct dissonant harmonies. With the notes in a C major scale you can make Fmaj7, Cmaj7, Dm7, F9, .... without the use of chromatics. And you can superimpose a consonant chord over a dissonant bass note all within the scale. Bach did use chromatics to construct dissonant harmonies,
Give me a break. grin

Originally Posted by Sweelinck
As I’ve already alluded to, I think some of the controversy in the thread has to do with the usage of the term chromatic.
I think some people are conflating "chromaticism" with "serialism". grin

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2941548 02/01/20 09:26 PM
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There has been no discussion of serialism.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Sweelinck #2941561 02/01/20 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
There has been no discussion of serialism.

Or really of chromaticism either. Gotta love online discussion boards. You really have to love the condescending tone in some of this, like:
Originally Posted by Sidokar

It is recognized by all experts that the intense chromaticism is the hallmark of early baroque. I am not trying to convince you, but you should take time to explore the music of this period, Monteverdi, Schutz, Shein, Ligrenzi, and others to see how it relates to Bach.

The points-scoring hair splitting gets silly.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
rmns2bseen #2941628 02/02/20 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen

Or really of chromaticism either. Gotta love online discussion boards. You really have to love the condescending tone in some of this, like:


It was not intended to be, so if you feel it that way, I appologize for this. My point was not a personal one related to you, but was simply to mention that in order to evaluate the compositional style of a composer, it is necessary to put it in perspective of what has been done before him in the very long period of baroque evolution since the beginning of the 17th century.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
pianoloverus #2941799 02/02/20 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Nobody was doubting the greatness or very high level of innovation of J.S. Bach.
Several posters have already doubted the level of innovation although certainly not the greatness of Bach. As I already indicated, some feel he was the culmination or summation of the Baroque but not greatly innovative. Of course, this whole discussion depends on one's personal definition of "innovative".

In his keyboard music(the topic of the study quoted in this thread), other than demonstrating that keyboards using the new tuning could be played in all keys via the WTC, what other innovations do you attribute to him?

As noted a few times, Bach’s major innovation was in using much more diverse harmonies and harmonizations than his contemporaries and predecessors. Bach’s music often is closer to that of the early romantic era harmonically than it is to the music of other Baroque composers.

I think he also propelled keyboard technique forward using his virtuosity to write music requiring more advanced technique than before, analogous to Chopin having done the same for piano.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2941851 02/02/20 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
As noted a few times, Bach’s major innovation was in using much more diverse harmonies and harmonizations than his contemporaries and predecessors.
Really. So explain in musical terms what sets Bach's harmonic writing apart from Sweelinck's, Monteverdi's or Handel's.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
rmns2bseen #2941907 02/02/20 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
As noted a few times, Bach’s major innovation was in using much more diverse harmonies and harmonizations than his contemporaries and predecessors.
Really. So explain in musical terms what sets Bach's harmonic writing apart from Sweelinck's, Monteverdi's or Handel's.

I posted an adagio some posts ago. Listen to the coda from 3:40. There’s a total escape from diatonic harmony, dissonance is interwoven with polyphony and a harmony with altered extensions and it’s not just a single chord for “color” but an entire progression that logically evolves. Such devices would appear centuries later. Can you show me a single example from Sweelinck, Handel or Monteverdi that utilizes similar devices?

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Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2941919 02/02/20 09:27 PM
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Here are some other examples.

https://youtu.be/7wqHSlOyFXg

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2941926 02/02/20 09:38 PM
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Also this, especially at around the 6 minute mark:

https://youtu.be/eTq3gszPsIQ

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
rmns2bseen #2941954 02/02/20 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
As noted a few times, Bach’s major innovation was in using much more diverse harmonies and harmonizations than his contemporaries and predecessors.
Really. So explain in musical terms what sets Bach's harmonic writing apart from Sweelinck's, Monteverdi's or Handel's.

Handel achieved harmonic variety through key changes. Within a key, chord progressions were usually straightforward I V or I IV V progressions. Bach used a much more diverse palette of harmonies and did not need to rely on key changes or chromatic movement to achieve diverse colorations. There is a large palette of dissonant harmonies within a key, either dissonant chords or superimposing a consonant chord over a dissonant bass note.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2941978 02/02/20 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Bach used a much more diverse palette of harmonies and did not need to rely on key changes or chromatic movement to achieve diverse colorations.
Using what techniques? This goes a little beyond using mere sevenths and ninths within a scale. By the way of example, using the dominant of the dominant (which occurs frequently not only in Bach but also in Mozart) would be necessarily chromatic. There's no getting around it.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2942008 02/03/20 01:32 AM
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It is an accidental, which just means it is outside the primary key signature of the piece, but it is a part of the scale of the key to which the music modulated. But we were not discussing whether Handel used chromatics.

I really do not wish to argue about the matter.


My chronological list of the top 20 composers: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann, Wagner, Verdi, Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2942013 02/03/20 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
It is an accidental, which just means it is outside the primary key signature of the piece, but it is a part of the scale of the key to which the music modulated.
grin Which modulation is called... grin

Hilarious.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
Tyrone Slothrop #2942025 02/03/20 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
It was not intended to be, so if you feel it that way, I appologize for this. My point was not a personal one related to you, but was simply to mention that in order to evaluate the compositional style of a composer, it is necessary to put it in perspective of what has been done before him in the very long period of baroque evolution since the beginning of the 17th century.
No need for apologies really, since I'm also an offender. I'll be the first to admit that I'm certainly no expert on Italian or French Baroque music. But I do detect differences between Corelli and Vivaldi on one hand and Bach on the other, just as there are differences between Bach and Handel. Those differences mean a lot, in my opinion.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer
CyberGene #2942376 02/03/20 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Zaphod
I would tend to agree with the statement about Rachmaninoff, but I would tend to tie him in first place with Liszt. I find myself unable to place one above the other.


That's a good analogy. In some sense I find both composers equally "boring", at least according to my personal taste. As I said, I occasionally enjoy Rachmaninoff and that also applies to Liszt but in general I find them really similar in how there's more of a technical stuff for the sake of being difficult and flashy than for having any real musical substance. Again, this is just a personal opinion, so I hope there's no offense.


It's funny you say that, because I feel the opposite, as if the technical passages are used as tools for certain effects, and I gain great musical satisfaction form them. I simply put that down as an indicator of different tastes. I don't think there's a right or wrong about it, so no it's not offensive to say that in the least.

I have the same with the Classical era - most of it leaves me pretty cold, whereas some people think it's the best stuff.

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