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Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2940901 01/31/20 08:51 AM
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I'm likely spouting off in ignorance.

To me innovative is adding something new and significant and significant enough that those who follow later include what you have done in their own work.

To me Rachmaninoff is the last, if not then one of the last composers of significance of the classical/romantic music eras before avant-garde classical starts to dominate.

What it feels like the authors have captured is not what I think of as innovative, but that Rachmaninoff has all of that rich history behind him which he has taken on and that is expressed in his own work. That doesn't say that he didn't innovate but classical music took a different direction. What more recent composers are there who include Rachmaninoff as a source for their own work?

To me the list from Mark_C pulled from the article mostly has mostly later composers as being more innovative with Bach being the big exception. Perhaps that says something unique about Bach. But it was the observation about the later composers being more innovative based on that list suggests to me a different definition for innovation is being used to what I understand.

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Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2940916 01/31/20 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
To me Rachmaninoff is the last, if not then one of the last composers of significance of the classical/romantic music eras before avant-garde classical starts to dominate.
I think of someone who was born about 9 years before Rachmaninoff: Richard Strauss. Was Strauss more "innovative" than Rachmaninoff? And can a composer have been "innovative" early on, but at the same time live long enough to be considered kind of musically obsolete?

To be honest, I don't think "innovation" is an inherent mark of greatness anyway. I think the word is a little loaded with a value judgement. If a composer's music moves me even though using old-fashioned, well-worn styles or forms, that's higher on the scale of things. I think that's a kind of innovation in itself.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2940948 01/31/20 11:43 AM
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Well chromaticism is for the purpose of expression for just any baroque composer (and others as well). In Bach, in particular his keyboard compositions, the chromaticism is the result of modulations and are to some extent a consequence of his counterpoint. To better evaluate the expressivity of his chromatic usage, it is better to look at his vocal compositions like his passions and cantatas.

I am not sure what you mean by clarity. The italian school in the early baroque period essentially florentin and venetian invented the expressive style of monody and concertato which would influence heavily the german music. Listen to just any composition of Gesualdo, Monteverdi last books of madrigal, Schutz Cantione sacrae. The chomaticism of these compositions is inherent to the early baroque italian style and it is one major innovation vs what used to be the stile antico of the previous Renaissance period. Another german composer interesting to listen to is Schein who was like Bach the Kapelmeister in Leipzig, who composed highly expressive and chromatic pieces of chorale concertato like Opella nova.

You can also listen to Sweelinck fantasias for keyboard which equal Bach (my personal opinion of course) in terms of counterpoint and structure. For example his Fantasia chromatica or fantasia contraria.

I am not saying that Bach music is not expressive nor that he is not using chromaticism, but it is the essence of the baroque music at its origin and again in my personal view there are several composers who used it with more intensity than Bach.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2940956 01/31/20 12:05 PM
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I would tend to agree with the statement about Rachmaninoff, but I would tend to tie him in first place with Liszt. I find myself unable to place one above the other.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Zaphod] #2940961 01/31/20 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaphod
I would tend to agree with the statement about Rachmaninoff, but I would tend to tie him in first place with Liszt. I find myself unable to place one above the other.


That's a good analogy. In some sense I find both composers equally "boring", at least according to my personal taste. As I said, I occasionally enjoy Rachmaninoff and that also applies to Liszt but in general I find them really similar in how there's more of a technical stuff for the sake of being difficult and flashy than for having any real musical substance. Again, this is just a personal opinion, so I hope there's no offense.


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Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941051 01/31/20 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
I am not saying that Bach music is not expressive nor that he is not using chromaticism, but it is the essence of the baroque music at its origin and again in my personal view there are several composers who used it with more intensity than Bach.
"More intensity". I'd have to see/hear some specific examples. grin

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941112 01/31/20 08:55 PM
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Here you go:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zHWp9nEL0s

Composed around 1600, I think Sweelinck’s Fantasia Chromatica was a landmark composition that influenced keyboard composers for almost 150 years, and even influenced some 20th century composers.

Sweelinck also produced a harpsichord version that readily can be played on piano. Sweelinck’s Fantasies also included contrapuntal devices that foreshadowed and influenced the development of the fugue. I cannot think of anything composed by Rachmaninov that was as innovative or influential. Perhaps Rachmaninov’s Vespers and some of his symphonies (eg #2 in Em) were his most novel and innovative work.


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Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Sweelinck] #2941113 01/31/20 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Here you go:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zHWp9nEL0s

Composed around 1600, I think Sweelinck’s Fantasia Chromatica was a landmark composition that influenced keyboard composers for almost 150 years, and even influenced some 20th century composers.

Sweelinck also produced a harpsichord version that readily can be played on piano. Sweelinck’s Fantasies also included contrapuntal devices that foreshadowed and influenced the development of the fugue. I cannot think of anything composed by Rachmaninov that was as innovative or influential. Perhaps Rachmaninov’s Vespers and some of his symphonies (eg #2 in Em) were his most novel and innovative work.

That's a wonderful piece, and thanks for pointing it out. No doubt such composers were a great influence on Bach. But: it doesn't really match the "intensity" or emotional impact of, say, the opening chorus of the St John Passion or the six part ricercar from the Musical Offering, which is why we remember the Bach works. It's a culmination, an innovative (if you will) gathering of strands while refining and imposing one's own voice. Mozart similarly.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941116 01/31/20 09:46 PM
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^ I think I can put my finger on the difference in that particular piece compared to Bach, and that's the sense of purpose and forward motion. It seems to be always present in Bach. He rarely if ever wallows. Unlike, say, Handel in the following piece. It's OK, but doesn't really seem to go anywhere:
https://youtu.be/aEf60elZF3A

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941133 01/31/20 11:56 PM
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Nobody was doubting the greatness or very high level of innovation of J.S. Bach. But I would be careful denigrating the music of Handel. Beethoven once said that Handel was the greatest composer of all time. That of course meant at the time of the quote, and Bach’s work had not yet been published so Beethoven may have only been familiar with a little of Bach’s music. But he still was ranking Handel above Haydn, Mozart, and himself.


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Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Sweelinck] #2941153 02/01/20 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Nobody was doubting the greatness or very high level of innovation of J.S. Bach. But I would be careful denigrating the music of Handel. Beethoven once said that Handel was the greatest composer of all time. That of course meant at the time of the quote, and Bach’s work had not yet been published so Beethoven may have only been familiar with a little of Bach’s music. But he still was ranking Handel above Haydn, Mozart, and himself.

That's all fine and good, but that fugue still goes nowhere. grin

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941182 02/01/20 04:32 AM
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That Sweelinck piece is indeed interesting due to the chromaticism but I’d say it’s just chromatic sequences that are predictable. Bach really used chromaticism to another level of harmonic freedom predating Wagner by more than a century.

Besides the Crucifixus from the Mass I posted previously, here are a few more examples.

The ending from 3:40


From 1:32 to the end


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Looking forward to romanticism:


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Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941203 02/01/20 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
That Sweelinck piece is indeed interesting due to the chromaticism but I’d say it’s just chromatic sequences that are predictable. Bach really used chromaticism to another level of harmonic freedom predating Wagner by more than a century.
Yes indeed. The Sweelinck and Handel pieces are more "chromaticism for the sake of chromaticism...listen to what it sounds like". Bach didn't invent the chromatic scale, of course. But I can't think of another composer before him who utilized it in quite the same way he did. By the way, I love Handel's music too, and revere his memory as much as the next person, but Bach is another level entirely, Beethoven's opinions notwithstanding.

And to the person who asked what I meant by "Italian clarity", I mean clearness and economy in melodic writing, which you'll usually find in abundance in Corelli, Albinoni, Vivaldi et al.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Sweelinck] #2941253 02/01/20 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Nobody was doubting the greatness or very high level of innovation of J.S. Bach.
Several posters have already doubted the level of innovation although certainly not the greatness of Bach. As I already indicated, some feel he was the culmination or summation of the Baroque but not greatly innovative. Of course, this whole discussion depends on one's personal definition of "innovative".

In his keyboard music(the topic of the study quoted in this thread), other than demonstrating that keyboards using the new tuning could be played in all keys via the WTC, what other innovations do you attribute to him?

Last edited by pianoloverus; 02/01/20 09:12 AM.
Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: rmns2bseen] #2941254 02/01/20 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rmns2bseen
The Sweelinck and Handel pieces are more "chromaticism for the sake of chromaticism...listen to what it sounds like". Bach didn't invent the chromatic scale, of course. But I can't think of another composer before him who utilized it in quite the same way he did. By the way, I love Handel's music too, and revere his memory as much as the next person, but Bach is another level entirely, Beethoven's opinions notwithstanding.

And to the person who asked what I meant by "Italian clarity", I mean clearness and economy in melodic writing, which you'll usually find in abundance in Corelli, Albinoni, Vivaldi et al.


No great composer is writing chromaticism just for the sake of it. It is always for the purpose of expression. The reason composers like Monteverdi used it is to highlight the meaning of the underlying text. The fact that you do not see where the fugue is going, so to speak, is because you are not used to the modal writing and the logic of it. Each person is more sensitive to a certain style of music.

It is recognized by all experts that the intense chromaticism is the hallmark of early baroque. I am not trying to convince you, but you should take time to explore the music of this period, Monteverdi, Schutz, Shein, Ligrenzi, and others to see how it relates to Bach. Albinoni and Vivaldi are already late baroque composers. I would not qualify their melodic writing to be clear. On the contrary, Vivaldi melodic writing is lavish. I think you are referring more to the textural and polyphonic complexity of their music.

An example of intense dissonance:

https://youtu.be/pMaYAFuC3RQ

Again i am not saying Bach is not a great composer, but in terms of expressiveness and emotional intensity, I do not see him at the top of the list. I will leave it here though.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941268 02/01/20 09:41 AM
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I would add one last point. I think there is a confusion between what people name chromaticism which they may equate to harmonic richness and complexity. I would concurr that Bach certainly was a master in harmonic complexity , though in a tonal system, and this richness implies necessarily some level of chromaticism but those are two different things. Like all baroque composers Bach used chromatic elements in his vocal music, diminished 7th for example in many of his passion most dramatic sequences. That said in this particular area many composers before him had done that to a larger extent. What he was unique at is to associate melodic expressiveness with a unique sense of harmonic architecture and complexity, all of this often times embedded in a complex counterpoint.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941438 02/01/20 05:58 PM
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There seems to be some conflation of the use of accidentals with chromaticism, which is only sometimes a correct identification. Often the use of accidentals is to effect a key change. When the key is changed, those accidental notes are not chromaticism or dissonances but just part of the key to which the piece modulated. In Baroque music, it is not uncommon that the modulation moves forward a step around the circle of 5ths and the accidental is the leading tone for the root of the new key. This makes it seem predictable and not seem like a dissonance. Of course accidental scare also used for the leading tone of the root of minor keys.

Chromaticism refers to using notes outside of the scale in melodies or contrapuntal voices for coloration. In Sweelinck’s Fantasia Chromatica you find both— almost constant key changes in some sections, but also walking bass lines and melodies and parallel intervals descending on a chromatic scales. By comparison, in Handel’s keyboard music you will most of the time see accidentals for the raised 7th position of a minor scale or for key changes that at times are so fleeting that they may only last as little as half a measure before moving to another key.

Handel’s harpsichord suite in G HWV 441 is a good example. In the 3rd full measure of the opening Allemande movement, the F natural is to create a G7 harmony, the 5-7 chord of C major to effect a key change into C. By the end of the measure the F# returns leading into G major but it only lasts for one 32nd note leading into an A major chord (with C# accidental) on the first beat of the next measure to effect a key change to D major, which does not last through even that whole measure as a C natural at the end creates a D7 chord (5-7 chord of G major) to effect a modulation back to G. All of this happens in the course of two measures. The key changes provide harmonic coloration. The use of accidentals is explained by that analysis. Handel manages the melodic flow through these fleeting key changes so effortlessly that most listeners would not even be aware of them.

This is just one example of the things that collectively are sufficient to rank Handel as one of the great, first tier composers. But the parallels with the key changes in Fantasia Chromatica seem unlikely to be coincidental.

I think the composing of Fantasia Chromatica roughly around 1600 (date unknown, possibly between 1609 and 1621, the period of the truce in the 80 years war for Dutch independence) also is interesting for the light it may shed on the history of tuning and temperaments. My understanding is that, while the temperament of a pipe organ may be modified after it is built, it is not a task to be embarked upon lightly. Pipes may need to be shortened or lengthened so that it is an expensive, labor-intensive proposition. The purchase and installation of a pipe organ was a major community commitment of resources whether facilitated by a church or a city. As a result, the choice of temperament could be a source of great political controversy. With much music being sacred, the choice of temperament was entangled with religious doctrine, and advocating for change could be interpreted as heresy, especially in the time of the reformation or inquisition.

I don’t know what temperament was implemented on the two organs in the Oude Kerk where Sweelinck was the organist, and it would have been more feasible to change the temperament of the small choir organ than to change it for the larger organ. (These organs were installed when Amsterdam was still Roman Catholic). I’ve heard recordings of Fantasia Chromatica in a generic mean tone, and I don’t think they sound as good as ones on instruments with a well (or equal) temperament. Sweelinck at one point made a trip to Antwerp to select a harpsichord to be purchased by the city of Amsterdam, and I’ve wondered if having the use of a harpsichord that he could tune himself facilitated the composition of Fantasia Chromatica.





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Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941452 02/01/20 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
No great composer is writing chromaticism just for the sake of it.
I think that in the Sweelinck and Handel pieces, that was probably 90% of the idea behind them.
Originally Posted by Sidokar
I would add one last point. I think there is a confusion between what people name chromaticism which they may equate to harmonic richness and complexity.
I'm not confused. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Harmonic progressions can also be chromatic. "Chromaticism" doesn't necessarily mean only Schoenberg and Webern, either...although while we're at it we could check if it was Sweelinck or Bach which wielded the biggest influence even on those two.
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
There seems to be some conflation of the use of accidentals with chromaticism, which is only sometimes a correct identification.
I know the difference, thanks. Just as I can tell the difference between Haydn and Mozart.

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941472 02/01/20 06:54 PM
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I found the snippet of documentary with Charles Rosen. Here ya go:

https://youtu.be/rmDb4Nt4RJY

Re: Research finds Rachmaninoff was the most innovative composer [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2941485 02/01/20 07:21 PM
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If you look at my first posting above not on the subject of the research cited by the thread, I wrote:
Quote

Bach has (edit: was) tremendously innovative. If you compare JS Bach and Handel, Handel generated harmonic variety through key changes. I think that was typical of most Baroque composers other than Bach (and earlier composers who achieved harmonic variety). Bach generated harmonic variety through use of much more diverse and innovative harmonies, much more so than any of his contemporaries or predecessors.

So I agree with Mr. Rosen. Diverse harmonies should not, however, be conflated with chromaticism.


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