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Satin black vs polyester? #2939904 01/28/20 05:37 PM
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dogperson Offline OP
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Someone posted in the Piano forum that Polyester is more durable than satin finish. Is this true?

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Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: dogperson] #2939922 01/28/20 06:13 PM
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Rickster Offline
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I think polyester is more durable in that it is a harder, tougher exterior finish. On the other hand, the satin finishes are thinner, and leave more of the wood cabinet exterior exposed and less protected, per-se, than the tougher polyester.

Polyester is kind of like the clear-coat on modern vehicle finishes. GM calls their factory clear-coat, "Diamond-coat" because of its hardness and durability.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: dogperson] #2939967 01/28/20 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Someone posted in the Piano forum that Polyester is more durable than satin finish. Is this true?

You are mixing terminology.
Polyester is a material -- like shellac, lacquer or polyurethane.
"Satin" is a finish treatment. Any finish material can be "satin".


Keith Akins, RPT
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Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: dogperson] #2939981 01/28/20 08:10 PM
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dogperson Offline OP
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Thanks so much! Then how do you know what material was used to create the satin finish?

Just really curious now, as a couple of responders have equated satin as being a less durable finish.

Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: dogperson] #2939995 01/28/20 08:39 PM
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P W Grey Offline
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Satin is very common with lacquer finishes. Polyester can also be done in satin, however high gloss is much easier to produce since it can be all achieved with machinery rather than hand polishing. Polyester goes on thick in one application and is ground down with polishing grinders to get glossy. Lacquer is applied in multiple coats and largely hand ground to the desired sheen.

Polyester us much harder than lacquer, however that hardness can also end up cracking as the wood moves underneath. No finish is perfect...all have their advantages and disadvantages.

High gloss poly will show every microscopic dust particle and fingerprint. Satin hides a lot of that. Choose your poison.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: dogperson] #2939996 01/28/20 08:43 PM
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dogperson Offline OP
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Thanks so much!


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: dogperson] #2939997 01/28/20 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Thanks so much! Then how do you know what material was used to create the satin finish?

Just really curious now, as a couple of responders have equated satin as being a less durable finish.

Typically, the satin of the New York Steinways, for example, are lacquer. But I've seen oriental pianos with polyester finishes with satin surfaces.

Well, If you are going to hit a new finish with a hammer, you have to hit the polyester harder to get a crack.
Polyester is probably more resistant to activities that shouldn't happen around a piano, anyway. But all finishes eventually fail due to ongoing environmental circumstances.


Keith Akins, RPT
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USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: dogperson] #2940021 01/28/20 10:47 PM
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The satin finish on my 40 year old Baldwin SF10 is highly directional. Fingerprints get stuck in the wood grain. The only way to erase them is to wipe/wash in the direction of the grain and even then they are hard to wipe out. Using swirling motions to clean the finish is worse than useless as swirling actually smudges the lacquer's grain.

Satin is a pain so in my next life I'm going with high gloss polyester that can withstand a rotary car polisher.


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Scarlatti K. 466, 521, 434, 24 / Haydn Hob. XVI/35, 36
Mendelssohn Op. 54
Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: Fidel] #2940045 01/29/20 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Fidel
The satin finish on my 40 year old Baldwin SF10 is highly directional. Fingerprints get stuck in the wood grain. The only way to erase them is to wipe/wash in the direction of the grain and even then they are hard to wipe out. Using swirling motions to clean the finish is worse than useless as swirling actually smudges the lacquer's grain.

Satin is a pain so in my next life I'm going with high gloss polyester that can withstand a rotary car polisher.


Are you using a product like Cory's All Brite?


Keith Akins, RPT
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USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: dogperson] #2940168 01/29/20 10:12 AM
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P W Grey Offline
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Like I said, no finish is perfect for all. And different levels of satin behave differently.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 01/29/20 10:13 AM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: dogperson] #2940237 01/29/20 12:04 PM
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I was not aware that the polyester finish came in a satin configuration. I thought polyester was always high-gloss. In fact, I've heard and read here on PW many times, that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to take a polyester, high-gloss finish, and sand it, or otherwise alter it to try to make it satin. I've read it creates a whitish, milky/creamy looking finish that is no where near satin.

But I guess if you deliberately apply the polyester finish to be less glossy, and satin looking, it can be done, I suppose. But I have never heard of a polyester satin finish.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: Rickster] #2940348 01/29/20 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickster
I was not aware that the polyester finish came in a satin configuration. I thought polyester was always high-gloss. In fact, I've heard and read here on PW many times, that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to take a polyester, high-gloss finish, and sand it, or otherwise alter it to try to make it satin. I've read it creates a whitish, milky/creamy looking finish that is no where near satin.

But I guess if you deliberately apply the polyester finish to be less glossy, and satin looking, it can be done, I suppose. But I have never heard of a polyester satin finish.

Rick

Not common, for sure. I've seen a few. Factory jobs, of course. Maybe there was a wax coat to keep the white down. It wasn't nearly as good IMO as satin lacquer or shellac.


Keith Akins, RPT
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USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Satin black vs polyester? [Re: kpembrook] #2940565 01/30/20 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by Fidel
The satin finish on my 40 year old Baldwin SF10 is highly directional. Fingerprints get stuck in the wood grain. The only way to erase them is to wipe/wash in the direction of the grain and even then they are hard to wipe out. Using swirling motions to clean the finish is worse than useless as swirling actually smudges the lacquer's grain.

Satin is a pain so in my next life I'm going with high gloss polyester that can withstand a rotary car polisher.


Are you using a product like Cory's Buff Brite?

In 2016 I bought Cory All Brite thinking that I could use it to remove the faintest of microscopic wipe marks from my brand new Blüthner High Gloss Polyester finish. I have experience in fine scratch removal and polishing on car clearcoat so I thought this would be a similar task. At first I was surprised that the Buff Brite advertised as suitable for polyester finishes was not making any headway after a few minutes using it in a gentle linear direction so as not to produce swirls. This polyester is much harder than any car clearcoat so I then increased the pressure slightly. The result was disappointing, as although the fine marks which could not be felt with my nail were removed the reflections from the small area being worked on were different from the other area.

On reading up on polishing technology I realise that any abrasive no matter how fine would cause the top layer of molecules to be worn away and be different to the molecule pattern of any other polished area. This would not have been a problem if the finish had been satin which microscopically speaking is relatively rough so different abrasives don't make so much of a difference. This has greatly increased my admiration for professional piano restorers.

I now use Cory Super High Gloss Polish and the penny size of previously worked area is now invisible.
Ian


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2016 Blüthner Model A

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